Thanks for the detailed response A,

Let me see if I can answer and then go and change some things to make it more balanced/understandable.

First of all, yes someone can steal it, but ideas are a dime-a-dozen. It's less likely someone would steal it and then actually act on it. And it's actually not feasibly possible to trademark game mechanics. So if they want to steal my mechanics they are legally allowed to. And I have no art, design or names yet to steal (which can be trademarked).

Okay

1. The 8 leashes thing definitely needs to be changed. Seems Like that is an overlook.
2. Give one dog to another player is vague. I will change that... These bonus cards are hard to come up with though... and I'm trying not to make too many similar ones.
3. I hadn't really thought about choosing not to return a dog. I'll have to make a decision one way or another. One one hand, it would be more strategic and forgiving to allow players to choose whether they want to return a dog. But on the other hand, withholding dogs seems a bit out of theme. I'm not sure.
4. About the Chihuahua - it shouldnt say "Chihauhua is not returned" on the card. I just deleted that. Chihuahuas are supposed to be switched with any dog in the neighborhood at the beginning of the round. They are worth 0 points and theres only 5 of them. If you held one to the end, you obviously wouldn't have taken advantage of its ability to basically take any card from the neighborhood at the beginning of the round. Granted you have to give your chihuahua up when you do so, giving other players the chance to snatch him.
5. Dalmatians actually were between 3 and 4 and I haven't fully decided.
6. Ya I havent created the neighbor cards yet

Thanks A. Yea it is about stacking, placing bids strategically and taking risks with bonus cards. Should you put a lot of treats in the bag at the beginning to make sure you get high agility and first pick for bonus cards, or do you keep the treats and try to outbid players. I haven't actually gotten the chance to thoroughly playtest it yet. I was supposed to go the game night tonight but my apartment complex negligently towed my car. They are going to get an earful from me in the morning and I'm not leaving that office until they reimburse me the $310 I had to pay to get my car back

Been thinking about ways to streamline the game a bit because I feel there are just too many components

Instead of secretly bidding a certain amount of treats at the beginning, maybe you should just be able to "give treats to strays" during your turn (for your turn). At the end of the round the most generous player has the highest generosity (replaces agility). This would effectively remove the treat pouch and the doghouses.

Also, I'm thinking about trying to get rid of leashes as well - as that is another thing that costs to produce and I think it maybe clutters the game too much. However, I would need to rethink some of the breed rewards.

For instance, it wouldnt make sense that the mutt is just 1 (leashes now irrelevant) and the Golden Retriever is 2+ Mutts. GR would need to be 1+Mutts. But that would indirectly buff bigger cards like the great dane that is worth 4 for the first and 1 for each additional. Perhaps the Great Dane would be 4 and -1 for each additional. Also what do I do with the dalmatian? Just make it a straight 2?

I like the new idea for agility becoming generosity. The only downside I could see to that is it would allow you to gauge the number of treats you need to give. I feel like a strength of the bidding system is that you do not know what you opponent does. do you put a lot of treats in the bag to guarantee high agility or go low and have more treats to feed dogs? that is the only aspect i would miss. The positives of changing it makes the game seem more fluid without adding the "bag" which seems like it'd be difficult to fluidly pass around. you could possibly include using the "bag bidding" style as just an optional rule.

I don't hate the leashes. I think it's a clever idea for another thing to manage. Should you give more treats to ensure you claim a dog, or get a leash to ensure you can return every dog? That said, I understand production cost would go up if leashes were included. to me, leashes seem like an interesting addition tho.

also, something you COULD do in regards to intentionally withholding dogs is having a limit of one (or some other number you arbitrarily pick). you could call that an "adoption" or something where, instead of returning the dog, you keep it as your own. (you would be credited for it the would just be like the "lore" behind why you aren't returning dogs) You could just keep it as withholding any number like I saw you currently have too, and still keep that lore the same.

What age group of people are you targeting with this game anyway? From your first draft I saw it was clearly intended for an older audience. really young kids couldn't bid, distribute treats strategically, and buy a proportional number of leashes to dogs. As you've looked at changing rules with removal of bag bidding and possibly leashes, it seems to decrease the age of the target audience by at least a few years. if you are targeting an older audience, you should definitely keep the leashes for that extra layer of depth. if you want a younger audience, taking out things like leashes and bidding is definitely a good idea.


EDIT: the golden retriever text also seems to be incorrect.

Good catch on the retriever typo.

My target audience is "Light Family Strategy" - I'm thinking along the lines of games that get nominated/win the Spiel de Jares - Splendor, Imhotep, Ticket to Ride (It's obviously not to the design level as these classics - maybe one day I'll get there). I wouldn't necessarily call it a "gateway game" but it's light family strategy.

I've already went ahead and changed agility to generosity. I have another game night tonight Im going to and Ill finally be able to test it there. I did like being able to secretly bid treats and then reveal them at the end. But the pouch, the doghouses, keeping your treats secret - it kinda cluttered the table. And I haven't even implemented the neighbor cards yet. Well see tonight if its needed. I think being able to see how much people are feeding the strays will be a constant back and forth between players that wasn't there when you bid secretly at the beginning. On my turn I could give a couple treats to the strays to get better bonus cards and break ties, but I really want this dog card that is in front of me... and If I wait til next turn, that dog wont be available... etc. etc.

The optional secret bidding style is a great idea. Perhaps Ill include a treat pouch and doghouses (screens) in a Kickstarter Stretch Goal - allowing players to choose their style of play.

I like the leashes too. And when you put it like that I think they are necessary to keep the game at a little higher strategic level. I already changed the agility to generosity but haven't done anything with leashes yet. Perhaps theres a way to purchase leashes that I can tie into feeding strays. Maybe you get a leash when you feed a stray? Not sure yet. Trying to streamline it. When you have treats going to dogs, treats going to the stray, treats going to a leash bank it gets a little messy. Trying to figure out a way to incorporate leashes more smoothly

also, something you COULD do in regards to intentionally withholding dogs is having a limit of one (or some other number you arbitrarily pick). you could call that an "adoption" or something where, instead of returning the dog, you keep it as your own. (you would be credited for it the would just be like the "lore" behind why you aren't returning dogs) You could just keep it as withholding any number like I saw you currently have too, and still keep that lore the same.

That's a great idea. I'm trying to think how to implement it. Perhaps for every dog you don't return, you get a -1 penalty. The basic penalty of not returning a dog is obviously not getting any reward for it... but I don't love the idea of not returning dogs - it just doesn't really fit into the theme and you should be penalized somehow for biting off more than you can chew.

The main reason I thought about ditching the leashes altogether was tied to this point. If there were no leashes, everyone would be required to return any dogs they caught. Maybe just get rid of the bonus cards that require you to "return 0 of said breed"? That way you'd want to return all the dogs you can. The only dogs you wouldn't return are those you don't have leashes for - and obviously you'd be able to choose which dogs you forfeit

Wow! I messed that up. I meant to say, "you wouldn't" be credited for them. It's just be like withholding a dog, but it seems like a nicer way to phrase it. If you don't want to do that though it is perfectly fine. I feel like docking a point for each dog you fail to return is a good idea because you can plan out how many dogs and leashes you'll need without going over (like the tickets in ticket to ride)

Mixing leashes and generousity can streamline the game, but it also incentivizes getting higher generousity. The way i see it is it's a choice. Get a lot of dogs, a lot of leashes, or high agility, or balance I suppose. Combining generosity with leashes eliminates one of those choices. Making it dogs or leashes/generosity. Here is an example where this would hurt: I've prioritized leashes/generosity all game. Most others players have a few more dogs an me but I win ties and can leash every dog I have. However, one player only has gotten 1 leashes at round 4. I want to get some generousity, but can't because I have 11 leashes. This indirectly caps my generosity because I can't feed more strays because when I do I'll have too many leashes. It could also be problematic if you get the card "purchase exactly 12 leashes" as once you've purchased 12 you can't get any more generosity without giving up that card. Maybe this situation is too much of an outlier but you do want to watch your games to be sure that doesn't happen.

good point A.

For now I'll keep it as it is: Feed dogs, purchase leashes or feed the stray. Right now I have cards to keep track of leashes - but perhaps there is a cheaper mechanic. Maybe like a notepad you see in Clue. Everyone can take a sheet and on the sheet is just a table where you can make a check every time you purchase a leash. Id have to look into seeing how this costs relative to about 90 cards (which is a lot). 90 cards vs 1 pad of leash sheets. Everyone can rip off one sheet and keep track of leashes using a pencil

Tonight Ill get a better sense of what needs to be fixed, balanced, streamlined, deleted completely...

bangerz wrote:but perhaps there is a cheaper mechanic. Maybe like a notepad you see in Clue. Everyone can take a sheet and on the sheet is just a table where you can make a check every time you purchase a leash. Id have to look into seeing how this costs relative to about 90 cards (which is a lot). 90 cards vs 1 pad of leash sheets. Everyone can rip off one sheet and keep track of leashes using a pencil

This is probably more expensive, but would be really cool. I assume you've played risk? So you know the miniatures used for counting troops? Tiny plastic leashes would be cool. Color coded maybe? Blue for a single leash, red for 5, and green for 10? That way you need a whole lot less of them to be made.

yea miniatures are very expensive to produce unless you produce a lot of them. The mold itself can be upwards of $1000.

I'm thinking of having some sort of cardboard tracker too. If you've ever play outburst?

bangerz wrote:yea miniatures are very expensive to produce unless you produce a lot of them. The mold itself can be upwards of $1000.

I'm thinking of having some sort of cardboard tracker too. If you've ever play outburst?

Okay, i assumed they wouldn't be cheap. Hmm... Is there any cap to the amount of leashes you can have? If not a simple "spinner" with numbers 1-10 could work. Never heard of outburst

Maybe small flat tokens where you can print labels and stick them then you can have various themes or design their own themes.