Why can we not just play with no restrictions though? Any rule we make is going to have minimal effort in a 5 day game with no gifts.

Considering you get one hypnotist every two hires and get a hypno as your first hire after 5 days you can only have 3 tops. And that's with an amazing amount of luck. Most likely, the most one person can have in a 5 day game is two, and even then, the losses of four hires are bigger than the gains of two kings.

The more restrictions get piled on, the less interested I am in participating. You're never going to perfectly balance this game because it's not designed to be a perfectly balanced game. Luck plays a role. The great thing about Subterfuge is that there are enough elements under the player's control to give the game depth and allow strategy to win over luck.

turnout wrote:The more restrictions get piled on, the less interested I am in participating. You're never going to perfectly balance this game because it's not designed to be a perfectly balanced game. Luck plays a role. The great thing about Subterfuge is that there are enough elements under the player's control to give the game depth and allow strategy to win over luck.

10/10 amazing mlg pro 360 420 blazeit noscope, best explanation ever legit.

No seriously, great way to illustrate my mind.

I'm in, btw

juanma206 wrote:

turnout wrote:The more restrictions get piled on, the less interested I am in participating. You're never going to perfectly balance this game because it's not designed to be a perfectly balanced game. Luck plays a role. The great thing about Subterfuge is that there are enough elements under the player's control to give the game depth and allow strategy to win over luck.

10/10 amazing mlg pro 360 420 blazeit noscope, best explanation ever legit.

No seriously, great way to illustrate my mind.

Actually isn't the whole point of 1v1 games to see who's better? So we should be focusing on minimizing the impact of luck. Imagine if all 10 dormant outposts were closer to your opponent..... (Which would be impossible I think, but if it were possible...)
Which is why 10-10 outposts and restricted promotable hires makes sense here.
Also regarding specialists, we should have: You can't hire a smuggler, hypnotist, navigator, or lieutenant unless your opponent can, and you can't promote one of those unless your opponent can. (I can hear a huge disagreement comin already)

tw2000 wrote:Actually isn't the whole point of 1v1 games to see who's better? So we should be focusing on minimizing the impact of luck...
(I can hear a huge disagreement comin already)

turnout wrote:You're never going to perfectly balance this game because it's not designed to be a perfectly balanced game. Luck plays a role. The great thing about Subterfuge is that there are enough elements under the player's control to give the game depth and allow strategy to win over luck.

Not a huge disagreement here, because, well, I think that you are both right.

The best way to play a fair, balanced game is to have a mirrored map. Unfortunately, that is unavailable.
While I think that it makes sense to attempt to make the beginning an even start, even if both get ten outposts, that doesn't mean that it will be even - one may get more factories, one could have a stronger cluster of outposts based on proximity or from having factories outside the generators, etc.

The best way to limit the luck factor of specialists is to not hire them.

That said, I think that a big part of the fun of this game IS the randomness involved. There is excitement about what hires you will get next, and concern over what your opponent will draw. You worry about getting that factory, and whether or not you can hold it. Those things are good.

I am not opposed to restrictions in an attempt to make the game more fair. But I do think that the more limited a game becomes, generally the less fun it becomes as well. Also...what is more fun than your opponent THINKING he has an edge, only to find out that you hired the perfect counter specialist (as opposed to what is considered the "best")?