How I would rework specialists to provide variable gameplay:

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related

  • zyxe wrote:You do realize that because a Navigator counts as a specialist it does not receive the Admiral boost


    I believe that his intent was to make the Admiral not stack at all, and to balance that- apply a .5 speed boost to subs carrying specialists. I'm figuring that by the way TopKilla is talking about Admiral interactions with specialists.
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  • carter j burke wrote:The navigator is fine as is. And speed change might be to cap high speed units eg smuggler or helmsman. But I think it would just complicate things.


    Eh. I disagree. I think it's too strong of a specialist in the early game for queen hunting when paired with speed. One of my biggest reasons for that belief is because the only specialist that can counter a Nav-ship is a pirate. So it's entirely possible to lose to queen hunting because you can't target (aka counter) the Nav.

    Allowing Navs to target ships (like a pirate) introduces a second counter to Nav-ships. And since that removes the need for a pirate on queen hunting ships, thats the reason for the speed decrease. Which I also feel helps brings balance to the game. Since the ability to change course is very powerful.

    But its also important to note that this will not eliminate queen hunting ships. It will just require them to be more tactical. Compared to the bullying nature that they currently exhibit.

    carter j burke wrote:Infiltrator could use a tweak. Maybe a 5 shield global instead of ten.


    Infiltrator*
    Local: Drains 20 from the shield charge of any outpost it attacks. Global: Each additional Infiltrator drains an additional 10 from the shield charge when attacking an outpost.

    I think what I have is fair. The infiltrator is certainly best in the early game. And it works very well when paired with a General. But its a very useless sub in the late game. And considering that some bases are easily capable of having shields of 60-80, I think a global ability that increases the amount of shield the Infiltrator drains, per additional infiltrator owned, is perfectly reasonable.

    It's basically like the General's Global ability, but instead of affecting all specialists, it only works for Infiltrators.

    carter j burke wrote:War hero: rather than +15 every five days, a +2 per successful combat as the legend of the war hero gradually increases? :)


    I think +15/5 days is a good number. Most games finish around 12 days. So at that rate, the War Hero would kill 50 Drillers/Battle. That's pretty reasonable for a promoted specialist I believe. If you gave it +2 per successful combat, its easy to have an ally send waves of 1 subs at it and then the specialist would be unstoppable.

    Also, it's important to note that this, as well as a few other specialist changes, have been specifically made to be ever so slightly on the 'unfair' scale to increase the usage of assassins.

    carter j burke wrote:Martyr I wish stacked with princesses to INCREASE the range. Wouldn't help gameplay but it would be really funny seeing a single sub with two princesses and a martyr take out large areas thermonuclear-style. :P


    I think, if you have a Martyr and a Princess on the same ship, the princess's ability should increase the range of the Martyr. But I'm not sure how useful that would be.

    carter j burke wrote:My major concern is the more complicated the specialists become, the more we lose newbie players and create more bugs.

    But really it's pretty close to perfection as is.


    The only thing that was significantly changed was the Nav. Everything else is very minor.
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  • r10t-- wrote:Or you know we could accept that it's not going to be changed and move on with the game. For an idea that is 100x easier to implement for the devs rather than rework every single global is to see "The Chancellor" specialist topic, it solves everything.


    I'm pretty confident that changing the few specialists currently in the game is 100x easier than implementing a new specialist thats extremely complex. On top of that, the Chancellor idea doesn't come anywhere near to solving the current problems with the specialists.
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  • topkilla wrote:the Chancellor idea doesn't come anywhere near to solving the current problems with the specialists.


    Oh? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
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  • zyxe wrote:
    I changed the description on the Nav a bit. Hopefully it helps explain the speed reduction better. I don't want the Nav to have a hard fixed speed at .75x. But a .75 reduction of the maximum possible speed. For example:

    Sub with Nav (No Admiral Global Effect) = .75x Speed
    Sub with Nav (Admiral Global Effect) = 1.125x Speed

    You do realize that because a Navigator counts as a specialist it does not receive the Admiral boost, meaning the only way you could have a Navigator move at the speed of a normal sub is through having another specialist on board, and having to use two of your three specialist spots in order to have a navigator to move at the same pace as a sub is really crippling.


    Navigator*
    Owner may change course of sub carrying Navigator. Subs with Navigators travel at .75x of the maximum possible Speed. Navigators can target ships.
    Promotes to: Admiral
    Admiral*
    Global: Increases speed of all your subs that aren't carrying specialists by 50% of ordinary subs. Local: Admiral travels 2x faster than ordinary subs.


    I do realize that. There's a conflict of interest between the Nav and the Admiral the way I currently have it stated. Nav says it goes .75x of the maximum speed. Admiral says only it only boosts ships not carrying a specialists. I don't know how to word it so the Nav is the only that gets the speed boost. But what you quoted me on saying above is what I'm interested in.
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  • janitorialduties wrote:
    topkilla wrote:the Chancellor idea doesn't come anywhere near to solving the current problems with the specialists.


    Oh? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.


    I think The Chancellor idea is too complex.

    Right now theres a handful of specialists in the game that break the core gameplay when multiples of them are stacked. Because of this, the current state of the games I'm playing has become overwhelmingly focused on revolving around those specialists. Limiting those effects while inside of a sentry-style range does nothing to do with fixing the core problem.


    Edit:

    Basically, what I've done with the current suggested changes to the specialists is to increase the depth of gameplay by:

    (1) Eliminating the stacking on certain specialists (Multiple Intelligence Officers, Princesses or Tinkers (at the same base), and Admirals)
    (2) Create directly related negative abilities to the handful of specialists that have overwhelmingly powerful positive abilities (King, Tycoon, and Engineers*)
    (3) By slightly changing a few other specialists so that they are more balanced throughout the entire course of the game. Compared to being neutral or strong in the early game and relatively useless later on. Some of which was done by slightly reworking the specialists. (Infiltrator, Nav) Some of which is done by reworking the specialists to receive a boost from other promoted specialists. (Infiltrator, Nav, Pirate)

    I think we are all in agreement that the game currently has balance issues. What I've got here isn't perfect. But I think it's a good start for fixing those issues. And I thought it could make for some interesting discussion.
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  • I suppose my idea behind the chancellor was this:
    Stacking specialists is fun as hell.
    Its awesome seeing your regular subs rush around due to 3 admirals
    Its sweet seeing a sub burn through 3 outposts without losing a single driller because you stacked kings
    Its cool seeing a saboteur take out 30 drillers because you got the time to invest in 3 generals

    Its fun useing these crazy combos in the late game. It was something I personally looked forward to when starting this game.

    But your right. It is incredibly frustrating to face some of these combinations because some don't have a counter.
    Some asshole got lucky and now has 3 kings. Bend over and pray you can kill his queen or something. Games should not be decided by who gets to stack X specialist and become impossible to kill.

    My specialist idea was to:
    Provide an alternative to nerfing everything by offering a counter to Stacking as a whole. Not just Stacked kings or admirals but others as well.
    ( as much as I like balance I also like a little ridiculousness- Satisfy my God complex)


    Its incredibly hard to balance things so they can be played competitively and still be fun for the masses that don't participate seriously in ranked.

    I do like your nerfs, they seem very well thought out and I pretty much designed the Chancellor in response to your nerfs- More or less putting your nerfs into a specialist you can hire to counterplay stacking specialists without taking their spark away.

    Good nerf on the Navigator by the way.

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  • janitorialduties wrote:I suppose my idea behind the chancellor was this:
    Stacking specialists is fun as hell.
    Its awesome seeing your regular subs rush around due to 3 admirals
    Its sweet seeing a sub burn through 3 outposts without losing a single driller because you stacked kings
    Its cool seeing a saboteur take out 30 drillers because you got the time to invest in 3 generals

    Its fun useing these crazy combos in the late game. It was something I personally looked forward to when starting this game.

    But your right. It is incredibly frustrating to face some of these combinations because some don't have a counter.
    Some asshole got lucky and now has 3 kings. Bend over and pray you can kill his queen or something. Games should not be decided by who gets to stack X specialist and become impossible to kill.

    My specialist idea was to:
    Provide an alternative to nerfing everything by offering a counter to Stacking as a whole. Not just Stacked kings or admirals but others as well.
    ( as much as I like balance I also like a little ridiculousness- Satisfy my God complex)


    Its incredibly hard to balance things so they can be played competitively and still be fun for the masses that don't participate seriously in ranked.

    I do like your nerfs, they seem very well thought out and I pretty much designed the Chancellor in response to your nerfs- More or less putting your nerfs into a specialist you can hire to counterplay stacking specialists without taking their spark away.

    Good nerf on the Navigator by the way.

    B-


    Yeah. The Chancellor isn't a bad idea. It's just that it doesn't address the problem. So it's not the best solution. And like I said, it's also pretty complicated, which is a bad for new players.

    I totally agree that stacking multiples of the same specialists is fun and highly valuable to the gameplay. And I probably should have named this thread something other than what I did. My goal here is not to eliminate stacking entirely. But to eliminate stacking on specialists that break important game mechanics when stacked. Like the Admiral, Princess, and Intel Officer. Bring the (or introduce) negative abilities more in line to counter the positive abilities of the most used specialists. Like the King, Tycoon, and Engineer. And to change a few of the other specialists to make them more useful throughout the entire game.


    So, For example, with this proposed change to the King: Global: Destroys 1 enemy driller for every 3 of your drillers that remain after specialist phase in every combat you are involved. Reduces supply cap by 50.

    If you were to stack 3 Kings, you'd lose 150 supply cap. With 3 Kings, that equates to 300 Total Drillers lost. You can still roll bases for free, but you have to be careful about it. As dedicating to many troops to offense could leave you wide open to attack. Even though you have shields.


    A change to the Admiral also has to happen... No question about it. I'm currently in a game where a player has 3 Admirals. 2 Kings. A Tycoon. And some other specialists. He almost beat me this morning by sending a single driller at my King/Queen/Tinker/Mine overnight. It takes him 9 hours and 23 minutes to reach my base. It takes me 24 hours to reach his. If I was any closer, or slept in late this morning, I would have been dead. Because it would take me 16 hours to move a single troop from my closest base to the mine. Multiple Admirals just break the core gameplay.


    I didn't change the General. Just specified when the global effect occurred.



    But yeah. I'm not trying to completely eliminate stacking. Yes. I believe stacking on Speed and Vision needs to go completely. But everything else just needs to be slightly tweaked.
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  • Further explanation on why I feel these changes would make for a better Balanced game:


    • Engineer*
      Global: Repairs 25% of the drillers you lose in combat (rounded up) after each combat you win. Local: 25% are repaired after combat taking place where Engineer is present (rounded up). A Maximum of [75-100%] of drillers can be repaired per battle.

    Without a doubt, the Engineer shouldn't be able to repair over 100% of the drillers lost, as is currently the case. I'm not 100% set on this change being the right one for the Engineer, but it's a good start.

    I'm currently thinking that the engineer may benefit from a double-agentish ability where he switches sides if he is captured.


    • Pirate*
      Sub carrying Pirate can target another sub. When targeting a sub, the Pirate's sub travels 2x faster than standard sub speed, then travels at 4x normal speed to nearest friendly outpost. - (Standard subs, not ordinary. Admiral gives the pirate a small boost, which helps with targeting other subs with a speed boost in the mid-late game)

    There's a number of specialists that become less useful the longer the game goes on. The pirate is one of those thanks to the Admiral. And Admirals Stacking. In order to keep the pirate as a useful specialist in the late game (right now he's only useful for targeting Nav-Ships) I'd like to see the pirate's speed boost be based off of your standard subs.

    What this would mean is that the pirate would travel at a speed factor of 2, if you don't have an Admiral. And would travel at a speed factor of 3, if you have an Admiral. And since I've also eliminated the Admiral Speed Stacking, (further down) The pirate would again become useful at what it's meant to do. Ambush subs.


    • Princess*
      Increases her outpost's sonar range by 50% of standard range. If you lose control of your Queen, the closest Princess becomes the new Queen.
    • Intelligence Officer*
      Increases your sonar range by 25% of standard sonar range. Shows you the type of all outposts that are outside your sonar range.

    Vision Specialists: Depending on the number of players in the game, I believe you can see the entire map if you have 3-4 vision specialists hired. I'm not sure on the exact number of specialists to player count, but fog of war is an extremely important element in the game. And stacking a few specialists and being able to see the entire map takes away from the spirt of the game.

    So the changes to both the Princess and Intelligence Officer eliminate their abilities to stack their abilities independently multiple times. But still allow them to stack together as a couple.

    ALSO: Since the Intel Officer increases standard sonar range by 25%, he would increase the range on the martyr slightly as well.



    • Infiltrator*
      Local: Drains 20 from the shield charge of any outpost it attacks. Global: Each additional Infiltrator drains an additional 10 from the shield charge when attacking an outpost.
      Combat priority: 4

    The Infiltrator is another specialist who is very useful in the early game, and then quickly dies off in usefulness. This change would make the Infiltrator like a General, but the Global effect would only apply to Infiltrators. This change would be a counter to shield stacking. But only if an infiltrator was on the sub attacking. Which helps create balance between it's strengths and weaknesses.


    • War Hero*
      Destroys 20 enemy drillers when participating in combat. Every 5 days this amount is increased by 15.
      Combat priority: 7

    Another specialist devastating in the early game, but relatively useless in the later game. Increasing the amount of drillers the War Hero Kills over time would increase his value to continue making him useful as the game goes on.

    15 Drillers every 5 days may be a bit much, so 10 may be a better option. But again, this is about starting the discussion to better gameplay balance than it is offering a fix.


    • Tinkerer*
      Increases your electrical output by 3 times Tinkerer's outpost's maximum shield charge. Tinkerer's outpost's shield charge is drained at 3 units per hour. Tinkers hate each other, and as such, only one Tinker can boost production per base.
      Promotes to: Minister of Energy

    The Tinkerer is an incredibly valuable solution to supply cap issues. I don't want to change what he does, but with the nature of the game, each player typically has a base where the shield level is 2-5 times higher than the rest of their bases. As such, running a tinker on a base with a shield of 50 equates to 150 additional supply per Tinker. That's equal to three generators.

    If you stack another Tinker on that base, you have the same boost in supply as you would from an Minster of Energy, but without the loss of production. Yes, you won't have any shields, but thats relatively a nonissue because your base should be protected.

    So I would like to see only 1 Tinker able to increase your supply cap 3x the maximum shield count per base.


    • Tycoon*
      Global: Speeds up your driller production rate by 50%. Decreases supply cap by 50. Local: Produces 3 additional drillers with each production cycle while at a factory.

    Like the Engineer, the Tycoon is not currently used much thanks to the King. But sooner or later, players will realize he's extremely powerful. Arguably more powerful than the King. So the lack of a negative ability is crazy.

    However, adding a decrease in supply cap directly affects his massive boost in production. Making you make the choice between faster production, or higher supply cap.

    • Navigator*
      Owner may change course of sub carrying Navigator. Subs with Navigators travel at .75x of the maximum possible Speed. Navigators can target ships.
      Promotes to: Admiral

    This is the biggest change of all the specialists. It does a few important things...

    (1) It decreases the strength of early queen hunter subs
    (2) It increases the strength of late game queen hunter subs
    (3) It gives a second option for targeting Nav-Ships


    • Admiral*
      Global: Increases speed of all your subs that aren't carrying specialists by 50% of ordinary subs. Local: Admiral travels 2x faster than ordinary subs.

    Slight change in wording results in the elimination of Admiral speed stack. I love stacking admirals, but But anything over a 1.5x speed assault on a base results in successful, undetected, overnight attacks. In the spirit of the game, you generally should be relatively safe with 8-12 hour absences.

    Yes, theres the exception of an Admiral or Helmsman attack traveling at 2x Speed, resulting in the possibility of a travel time of 3.5-4 hours between two bases over night, but this requires a specialist be present and that the bases be extremely close together. So it should be easily accounted for it.

    • King*
      Global: Destroys 1 enemy driller for every 3 of your drillers that remain after specialist phase in every combat you are involved. Reduces supply cap by 50.

    Each King proves each sub with an additional 33% of free drillers. Decreasing supply cap decreases the driller count which decreases the amount of free drillers possible. It should also decrease the desire to, but not eliminate, stack multiple Kings, since it would take a heavy toll on supply cap.

    Unchanged Specialists:

    • Diplomat
      Releases all captive specialists you own that are being held at an outpost within Diplomat's outpost's sonar range.
    • Revered Elder
      No other specialists participate in combat, unless both sides have a Revered Elder.
      Combat priority: 2
    • Foreman
      Produces 6 additional drillers with each production cycle while at a factory.
      Promotes to: Engineer
    • Lieutenant
      Destroys 5 enemy drillers when participating in combat, travels 50% faster than ordinary subs.
      Combat priority: 7
      Promotes to: General
    • General*
      Global: General destroys 10 enemy drillers after the specialist stage in each combat in which you have a specialist present after the specialists phase. Local: Travels 50% faster than ordinary subs.. (Only the description is changed to explain when the 10 drillers are killed)
    • Sentry
      Fires on an enemy sub once every 2 hours while at an outpost. Each shot destroys 5% of drillers rounded up. Sentry's range is half of its outpost's sonar range. Target is chosen to maximize damage.
      Promotes to: War Hero
    • Minister of Energy
      Global: Adds 300 to your electrical output. Your factories produce 1 driller less each production cycle.
    • Saboteur
      Redirects enemy sub to its owner's nearest outpost when participating in sub-to-sub combat.
      Amount: 2
      Combat priority: 3
    • Assassin
      Kills all enemy specialists present when participating in combat.
      Amount: 2
      Combat priority: 6
    • Inspector
      Fully charges the shields of a friendly outpost upon arrival and after every combat while he's present.
      Promotes to: Security Chief
    • Security Chief
      Global: Adds 10 to max shield charge of all your outposts. Local: Adds 10 to max shield charge of Security Chief's outpost.
    • Double Agent
      When participating in sub-to-sub combat, drillers on both subs are destroyed, subs swap ownership along with any specialists aboard, and combat ends.
      Combat priority: 5
    • Queen
      Adds 20 to her outpost's maximum shield charge. If you acquire another Queen, she becomes a Princess. Queen may periodically hire specialists.
    • Thief
      Converts 15% of enemy's drillers (rounded up) to your side when attacking an outpost, or in sub to sub combat.
      Combat priority: 4
    • Smuggler
      Travels 3x faster than ordinary subs while heading for one of its owner's outposts.
      Promotes to: Tycoon
    • Martyr
      Destroys all subs and outposts within Martyr's blast radius when participating in combat. Blast radius is 20% of standard sonar range.
      Combat priority: 1
    • Helmsman
      Travels 2x faster than ordinary subs.
    • Hypnotist
      Takes control of all captured specialists present at his outpost.
      Promotes to: King
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  • I think everyone here is mental. The devs have an amazing game, and so what if some things are better than others. It's the whole point. Specialists are used as boosts, so why make boosts exactly the same? Leave them as they already are
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