roadkiehl wrote:I also don't think we can expect them to release the code. It's their property. When a company releases their code for modders (XCOM 2 jumps to mind) it's remarkable.

Actually, with most games on PC such as LOL and other things, you can actually reverse the process of running the application to obtain the source code (a process called decompiling). I just don't know about mobile games...
Also here's some copyright issues dealt with... from someone else on the internet
"Keep in mind that you can not simply decompile, mod, recompile, and release as that would essentially give the game away free. Any source code mod must be release as a difference patch or in some other manner that only distributes your changes and not the original code. Same goes for releasing your own source, you can distribute your changes, but the decompiled source code of the game can not be redistributed."

tw2000 wrote:Actually, with most games on PC such as LOL and other things, you can actually reverse the process of running the application to obtain the source code (a process called decompiling). I just don't know about mobile games.

Yes, but that's not exactly the same thing, is it?
Suppose you buy a computer. You could take the computer apart and figure out how all the pieces work to change the components if you like. And there's nothing particularly wrong with that. But that's not the same thing as asking Apple for their mechanical drawings of the computer.

roadkiehl wrote:

tw2000 wrote:Actually, with most games on PC such as LOL and other things, you can actually reverse the process of running the application to obtain the source code (a process called decompiling). I just don't know about mobile games.

Yes, but that's not exactly the same thing, is it?
Suppose you buy a computer. You could take the computer apart and figure out how all the pieces work to change the components if you like. And there's nothing particularly wrong with that. But that's not the same thing as asking Apple for their mechanical drawings of the computer.

In my opinion, your analogy would resemble figuring out the source code by yourself by playing a game more than it resembles decompiling a game. Decompiling a game, in your analogy, would be more like scanning the computer using an X-ray machine from different angles and getting a program to figure out where everything goes (even though this isn't an actual thing...yet)

My basic idea, however, wasn't exactly to let the Devs release the source code (even if I did say it, I meant to say the following), but to be able to obtain the source code. It doesn't really matter how; the important thing is that we do it. It will make the Devs feel like Subterfuge perhaps was worth the time that put into it, as then the game would pretty much be 'updating itself', like an investment. In fact, the Devs did invest time and effort into Subterfuge. Now I believe we need to show them their investment was worth it.

Also, Question: How else do we keep Subterfuge as alive as when the Devs were here?

tw2000 wrote:In my opinion, your analogy would resemble figuring out the source code by yourself by playing a game more than it resembles decompiling a game. Decompiling a game, in your analogy, would be more like scanning the computer using an X-ray machine from different angles and getting a program to figure out where everything goes (even though this isn't an actual thing...yet)

Ok, I see your point. Decompiling is easier.
But I have another aspect of the issue that I think we've been forgetting up to this point: The game is on the App Store. And Apple is notorious for allowing zero access to the inner workings of their devices/apps. It's very effective at keeping viruses and the like out of the App Store, but modding is impossible, to my knowledge, wherever Apple is involved.

tw2000 wrote:Also, Question: How else do we keep Subterfuge as alive as when the Devs were here?

Well, back in my day, when a game was released, it stayed the way it was on release day. Forever. Hard to believe, I know. We didn't need no fancy updates or dlc to keep loving our copies of Super Mario 64.
In all seriousness, though, Subterfuge is fine the way it is. The devs spent three years on this thing, and I think it's superbly balanced, all things considered.

roadkiehl wrote:

tw2000 wrote:In my opinion, your analogy would resemble figuring out the source code by yourself by playing a game more than it resembles decompiling a game. Decompiling a game, in your analogy, would be more like scanning the computer using an X-ray machine from different angles and getting a program to figure out where everything goes (even though this isn't an actual thing...yet)

Ok, I see your point. Decompiling is easier.
But I have another aspect of the issue that I think we've been forgetting up to this point: The game is on the App Store. And Apple is notorious for allowing zero access to the inner workings of their devices/apps. It's very effective at keeping viruses and the like out of the App Store, but modding is impossible, to my knowledge, wherever Apple is involved.

What if you sent the modified code to the devs with some notes about the new code. They would then send it off to the App Store as an update. Subterfuge would continue development but the devs would still have control over the game and be able to work on other projects.

chariot rider wrote:What if you sent the modified code to the devs with some notes about the new code. They would then send it off to the App Store as an update.

Annnnnnd we're back to asking the devs to stick around. Guys: They have to feed their families. They can't keep throwing time and money into this game.

Quality control is the issue.

Even if the idea suggested is a good one and the code is all written for them, there's 2 options:

1) They dont test it, then send it off to apple for the update to go through, and then maybe that untested code breaks our game.
2) They test the code, meaning they spend time testing the code, which as road is pointing out, means asking for time from the devs.

I think the Deva made the right choice. One last update to iron out the bugs and add a donate feature for those who want to contribute more. (That's what I figure the last update will be.) I agree with road, we don't need DLC to keep subterfuge fun. This game is perfection and all the experiment games on the forum allow for a twist if that's what you're looking for.

Beatifully crafted game. A+ for the devs, go spend your time where you can make more money

kevlargolem wrote:Quality control is the issue.

Even if the idea suggested is a good one and the code is all written for them, there's 2 options:

1) They dont test it, then send it off to apple for the update to go through, and then maybe that untested code breaks our game.
2) They test the code, meaning they spend time testing the code, which as road is pointing out, means asking for time from the devs.

But think about it. The ratio of the time it takes to test the code to actually being the Devs is like 1:50. They'll spend 50x less time on this game by just doing quality control. There's another way to do quality control that doesn't take any testing from the Devs as well. For every update from the forum members, there are 2 updates they do. The first is to update the game so that the new modes actually exist for selected/self-nominated players (possibly active forums members/moderators) to test. During the test, if the game breaks in anyway, there needs to be an option to switch back to the previous update. If at least 2 thirds of the 'beta testers' of the update says that it passes the quality control, then the Devs are allowed one last chance to veto before fully deleting the previous code and replacing it with the new code, and releasing a new update so that everyone gets to play the updated version.
So, to summarise,
Update 1. For beta-testers to control the updates.
Update 2. For everyone to enjoy the new update (if it passes).

To respond to tw2000 again, I'm going to say the same thing, again: You're asking the devs to do a lot more work than I think you realize. Managing stuff like this takes effort: data collection, troubleshooting, and the like. That's time and money.
Keep in mind, the devs are responsible for the game. Suppose someone puts a virus in the mod, and it gets installed in the phone of every beta tester. Unlikely, but possible. Or suppose it's something less malicious: faulty code that screws up the download or the app. Who's going to fix that? The devs. Because their name is on this thing, and if their game breaks people's phones, it's ultimately their fault. I'm no lawyer, but I suppose they could do some waiver-like contract with the modders, but dang, if you were asking them to waste their time before, asking them to deal with legal issues is a whole other level.

Listen, this is just never going to happen. Sorry to break it to you, but Subterfuge is going to stay the way it is. And, honestly, that's fine. There's a reason you and I both enjoy this game so much already: because it really is quite good.