blanc wrote:I have L2 but I doubt most of you could understand just how much I went through to scrape together the money and sneak out, risking my parent's wrath just to buy that gift card.

I remember those days, asking my friends to buy gift cards for me via cash, like some sort of smuggling operation.

That's an interesting thought about the little costs many times vs one large cost mentality. Perhaps Subterfuge can have a mix? Perhaps in the future people can get little purchases like skins for units/specialists other than medals, or something along the line with the ads thing, like a certain low amount of money gives you unlimited orders for X hours/days, or another cheap purchase allows you to add an additional game [this all for people who are L1] one time.

pandasecret wrote:

blanc wrote:I have L2 but I doubt most of you could understand just how much I went through to scrape together the money and sneak out, risking my parent's wrath just to buy that gift card.

I remember those days, asking my friends to buy gift cards for me via cash, like some sort of smuggling operation.

That's an interesting thought about the little costs many times vs one large cost mentality. Perhaps Subterfuge can have a mix? Perhaps in the future people can get little purchases like skins for units/specialists other than medals, or something along the line with the ads thing, like a certain low amount of money gives you unlimited orders for X hours/days, or another cheap purchase allows you to add an additional game [this all for people who are L1] one time.

Yeah, this is what I mean, so people could either pay the bulk cost for $10 or buy smaller, temporary L2 benefits.

sorry but that makes no sense. One cannot buy a 10$ game but they are able to play it the first time on a device thats costs x times that of the game.

If you are child with no allowence, sorry for you, but again where does the android or ios device comes from. Its like buying a porsche but not being allowed to fill up gas.

Splitting it up would make no sense either. Youd need to spend money and there is no 3$ gift cards a child could buy.
You can still use the Ads to get some L2 features if you need to.

If 10$ is an amount you can afford save up, dont ask the developers who have not yet earned a dime on this game to make it cheaper for your personal reasons. You dont go into Porsche and ask for a price reduction because you can't afford it. Thats not the way the world works.

If you grow up and start to earn money you'll notice yourself that you want to get paid for your work, the same as the developers. Asking for a handout on a "luxury" is pretty childish.
Go maw the lawn of your neighbour or so if you want the L2 purchase and want the game to get going.

If the devs do not earn enough money the game will sooner or longer not the viable anymore.
Servers will shut down and that will be it.

Look at the blog, read it and understand how reality works. There are NO free games. Nothing is free in life. Everything costs something.

macish wrote:sorry but that makes no sense. One cannot buy a 10$ game but they are able to play it the first time on a device thats costs x times that of the game.

If you are child with no allowence, sorry for you, but again where does the android or ios device comes from. Its like buying a porsche but not being allowed to fill up gas.

Splitting it up would make no sense either. Youd need to spend money and there is no 3$ gift cards a child could buy.
You can still use the Ads to get some L2 features if you need to.

If 10$ is an amount you can afford save up, dont ask the developers who have not yet earned a dime on this game to make it cheaper for your personal reasons. You dont go into Porsche and ask for a price reduction because you can't afford it. Thats not the way the world works.

If you grow up and start to earn money you'll notice yourself that you want to get paid for your work, the same as the developers. Asking for a handout on a "luxury" is pretty childish.
Go maw the lawn of your neighbour or so if you want the L2 purchase and want the game to get going.

If the devs do not earn enough money the game will sooner or longer not the viable anymore.
Servers will shut down and that will be it.

Look at the blog, read it and understand how reality works. There are NO free games. Nothing is free in life. Everything costs something.

When I said people should stop being ignorant, this is what I was referring to.
You just don't understand, and you probably never will.
I know this because I have spoken to many people that share this view tried to make them understand and it's the same, speaking to a brick wall of irritation.

It actually makes quite a lot of sense when one's parents buy them a a smartphone that was free (excluding the plan) solely for, and I quote, 'educational purposes'.
It's not like the people are poor, but some parents don't see any benefit to wasting money on a game. Granted, smartphones cost more than this game, but that does not mean the benefit of buying a game vs the benefits of owning a smartphone are equal.

I don't expect you to understand this, though.

If a child has no allowance and has a phone, a sensible, intelligent person would assume their parents bought the phone. Honestly. Not that complicated.

And your metaphorical reference to Porsche is commendable, but entirely false.
$10 to the roughly $300 average smartphone cost is nothing compared to the Gas: Car Price of a Porsche
Not even to mention that gas has to be paid for repeatedly and this game is a one time fee.

After all of this, you still failed to understand the simplest fact of what I was saying. I don't remember ever stating that the price should be reduced.
The price should stay the same, except there should additional little extra add-ons for reduced prices, these add-ons would not come close to the full $10 L2 package and would be temporary.

Lastly, I apologize for the hostile tone I have taken with this post, but I believe that I should reply to hostile posts with equally hostile ones.

Thanks for reading

I'm not responding to indiviual posts here, just showing a bit of history.

The devs have written two blog posts when they were considering the pricing model. Post 1 and post 2.

The initial idea was:

• $2 for a single game pass. Top 3 players (medal earners) would get a free single game pass for their next game.
• $20 for a passport for unlimited games (no mention of multiple games at the same time)
• $40 for an community pass where you and your friends all play free.

So what you're currently getting for $10 was initiatlly thought to be $20, and for that $10 you also get a big part of the $40 purchase (L2 owners can invite friends for free, just not play ranked games with them).

The devs realised that most people (everyone who didn't get a medal) would hit a pay wall after their first game, so they went with the L1 / L2 idea, where L2 was scheduled to be $10-$20. So again they picked the cheapest option.

In any pricing model a few people are gonna want it for less, but in every choice they made, the devs already went with the cheapest option. $40 is very high for an app, not so extremely high for a boardgame, but anyway, if you've picked the cheaper version of your ideas *every single time*, I think at some point you're done slicing that price in half.

I got way more value out of my *first* game of Subterfuge than out of a single movie theater visit, so I feel like I got the $10 worth in my first 7-10 days alone.

(Ok, I'll respond to one concrete idea - I like splitting the purchases up.

• Unlimited moves $4
• Unlimited games $3
• Notes on players $3
• Ranked games $2

So by purchasing L2 right away you get a discount, individual purchases are more expensive in the end.)

blanc wrote:

pandasecret wrote:Jeez stop hating guys , no reason to get toxic over this.
To get back on track, when I was considering buying Subterfuge, $10 was slightly off-putting (perhaps because that would also have been my first app purchase) but after looking through the forums, posts like the ones v3xt made persuaded me - it really is a good deal considering the quality and caliber of a game like Subterfuge, which has basically all aspects to become a PC game if it wanted, and all the fun and strategy with it.

This is important, I feel as though topics like this get so toxic way too quickly.

Just to put in my input, I think those mini purchases for unlimited games, unlimited moves, etc would actually be a decent idea.
People keep bringing up games such as Clash of Clans, but let's actually think about it.

Clash of Clans makes money off gems, the biggest gem package costs roughly $100 and the cheapest costs $5. People spend money because they don't want to simply spend the bulk amount of money on a game all a once.
I know people that play games like that have easily spent hundreds on them except they paid in little costs of $5 and $10.

Obviously $100 is a lot more than $10, but spending $10 is not an easy thing for some people.
I feel as though some of you are being slightly ignorant. Not everyone is the same age as you and not everyone has access to the same resources and freedoms.
I have L2 but I doubt most of you could understand just how much I went through to scrape together the money and sneak out, risking my parent's wrath just to buy that gift card.

I know a lot of you don't agree with me, and that's okay, but please think about the people who just can't buy L2.

I think smaller purchases could be a good idea and also maybe some extra fun things as mentioned in the monetization thread.
Thanks for reading

You're right, of course. I hope I didn't come across that way. Perhaps the title and first post of the thread has a lot to do with the negative attitude, though. Not because there's anything inherently wrong about putting the idea out there, but because it devalues the product if the devs make L2 cheaper.
Imagine you buy a gold ring. It's expensive and a luxury, but you think it's well crafted and very much worth the investment, so you buy it.
Right after you buy it, the price of gold drops. How lame is that? I think it's natural to get upset about something like that, even if it's nobody's fault.

Beyond that, the price tag is a measure of worth (obviously). Because of that, suggesting that Subtefuge should be cheaper implies that it's not worth much. And that grates on people who love this game.

Perhaps I didn't weigh the suggestion as much as I should have because of that. And I honestly can't relate to new players, since I got to try the full version for free in the beta before spending a dime. Maybe you are right after all?

I do want to ask again, though: How does making the game cheaper attract a larger audience? "Because more people can afford it," is true enough, but I don't think it'll give the kind of turnout you'd need to recoup the money you lose from cutting the price. And I think it's safe to assume that anyone who would buy but hasn't is already playing at L1 clearance. I'd be interested to know what percentage of players that is. Everyone who quit the game during the initial rush of players definitely didn't do it because of the price tag.
So if my assumptions are correct, then we've got a small group of players who want to play for free and a smaller group who would buy but can't because they don't have a credit card or something, and a much smaller group who want to play but think L2 is too expensive.
Maybe that last group is larger than I think, but even if that's true: How cheap is cheap enough? Keep in mind, $10 is far less than CoD or Fallout 4. It might be more than an average phone game, but this isn't an average game. This is a premium product, like gold. And the devs have to make money off of this, so they can't make it too cheap. And you have to remember that there will be new players who come in and would be willing to spend $10, but are only charged $5, or whatever you lower the price to.
It's just not a sure fire way to make money. 1/2 the cost does not equal 2x the buyers.

blanc wrote:When I said people should stop being ignorant, this is what I was referring to.
You just don't understand, and you probably never will.
I know this because I have spoken to many people that share this view tried to make them understand and it's the same, speaking to a brick wall of irritation.

It actually makes quite a lot of sense when one's parents buy them a a smartphone that was free (excluding the plan) solely for, and I quote, 'educational purposes'.
It's not like the people are poor, but some parents don't see any benefit to wasting money on a game. Granted, smartphones cost more than this game, but that does not mean the benefit of buying a game vs the benefits of owning a smartphone are equal.

I don't expect you to understand this, though.

If a child has no allowance and has a phone, a sensible, intelligent person would assume their parents bought the phone. Honestly. Not that complicated.

And your metaphorical reference to Porsche is commendable, but entirely false.
$10 to the roughly $300 average smartphone cost is nothing compared to the Gas: Car Price of a Porsche
Not even to mention that gas has to be paid for repeatedly and this game is a one time fee.

After all of this, you still failed to understand the simplest fact of what I was saying. I don't remember ever stating that the price should be reduced.
The price should stay the same, except there should additional little extra add-ons for reduced prices, these add-ons would not come close to the full $10 L2 package and would be temporary.

Lastly, I apologize for the hostile tone I have taken with this post, but I believe that I should reply to hostile posts with equally hostile ones.

Thanks for reading

first of all, i was not replying to you directly but in general. I did not say you wanted X or Y.
The Topic says "L2- Too expensive". I Quoted you so this is a reply to you.

second, i dont read any hostility in your post. I think people can read different "tones" into the same sentence. Anyway.

The car analogy was just that an analogy. Of course its not a perfect example and exegerated at least a "tiny" bit but still if daddy buys you a porsche and you can't afford insurance, taxes, gas etc. crying about the expenses is a bit odd.
As for educational purposes (LOL) whats that? WhatsApp? Facebook Messenger, Fart Apps?
I somehow doubt the majority of parents buy their children phones for "educational" purposes rather than because the child just "wants" it.

As for the "child has no money" aspect. So be it. If you cant afford something you can't afford it. You can play for free and get L2 features by watching ads. I don't quite see the problem here. It does not matter if its a child or a grown up.

The problem is people say its too expensive. Because that statement itself is ridiculous on so many levels. The myth that it would sell better if its cheaper is just that a myth.
Its a tactic game with a very small target audience and this target audience is usualy not shy of spending money.
Still the behaviour patter teached to mobile users that apps should be free is a hard nut to crack. This game should be more expensive not cheaper. Why?
So that the devs actualy make a dollar and because this game is worth it.

Imho the free game gives away too much already and the devs see that in the conversion numbers. This games audience in itself is rather small, then some features like ranked games and more competitive modes are an even smaller audience of that already small audience.

So L2 is a rather hard sell, because alot of the features are not much of an interest to the bigger playing audience.
The introduction of medals as another possibly revenue generator is something most people won't use at all. They did not spend money on L2 so its unlikely they spend a dollar to tag a player they probably never encounter anymore in the game.

To go full circle here. The problem is not that L2 is too expensive but that the devs give away too much to have a good stance earning a steady income.

But its hard to get monetization right theese days. Somehow maybe they should put proper banners ads into their UI.. if you have not L2 you get shown a banner on top or at the bottom the hole time and it refreshes every now and then.
This way they could earn some money while non L2 are playing the game without interfering much. They'd still earn some cents here and there from the "masses".
Usualy the "cheap - i dont pay for apps" people do not care about ad banners, they are used to them and click them away or ignore than.
For the devs this could be a way to help them out monetizing all the free people and keeping the lights on.
They choose not to for a reason i understand, but which is wrong in the current mobile world.

As for splitting that bit of L2 stuff. That would be crazy. You don't usualy buy single features but packages. Thats why people love to buy packages. If you confront them with maybe hard or not clear choices on what to purchase, they ususaly dont buy anything.

L2 itself is not just a sets of features, its a way to support the devs aswell. You like to play the game? Send the devs some money. Game developement costs alot of money and keeping the lights on needs money too.

For all the children who do not get an allowance with their new iphone. Maybe safe money from christmas or birthdays. If your parents dont allow you to spend money on this particular game or in general, ask them if they would like it to not be paid either for their work. Maybe they change their mind.

I feel as though I've been misunderstood.
When I mentioned the mini purchase idea, I didn't say that it should replace the L2 payment.

Like one could either:
- Buy L2
- Buy little mini purchases that are part of L2

I'm not saying the bulk L2 purchase should be removed, that's stupid.
Nor am I saying, heaven forbid, that the price be reduced.

This is literally just an 'extra item in the shop', if you will. L2 will still exist

blanc wrote:I feel as though I've been misunderstood.
When I mentioned the mini purchase idea, I didn't say that it should replace the L2 payment.

I understood you correctly maybe wasn't very complete in my post on this page. Smaller individual purchases (ideally $11-12 combined) or the one current L2 pass ($10).

stefan wrote:

• Unlimited moves $4
• Unlimited games $3
• Notes on players $3
• Ranked games $2

I'd say find one more thing you can charge for, maybe removal of ads, and just charge $2.99 for them individually. The total cost for the individual purchases adds up to $15. Meanwhile L2 gives you all that stuff for $10. Then you get all psychological on them and they feel like they got a great deal.