tw2000 wrote:You mean like in those tower defense games where you can upgrade each tower according to different paths?

I am not sure which games those are, but likely yes.

Everyone would start with the same 3 hires. The next round, you would get 3 different ones, again the same as every other player.

Then for every hire after that, you could choose any of those initial 6, or you could promote something you already have. The initial hires offer small benefits, though they get considerably stronger as you move up the tree. Plus, every time you promote, you would have a choice of paths; each path would give you different abilities.

For example, say you break it down in to five separate categories: combat, movement, vision, defense, and utility.
(I am currently using Army = Combat, Navy = Movement, Royalty = Vision, and Criminal = Utility. The names are mostly irrelevant, though, so bear with me.)

So, let's say you start with a combat hire - the Private (kills 5 drillers when involved in combat - the Lieutenant now, without the speed buff).
When you go to promote the Private, you could choose from two (or possibly more) paths.
On one side, you could improve your specialist by promoting to Sergeant (kills 5% of drillers when involved in combat, minimum 5).
Or you could improve your drillers by promoting instead to Lieutenant (when Lt. is in combat, drillers aboard your sub kill 1.1 drillers - this is often referred to as a "leadership" ability).
Then your tree could look something like this:
Private --> Sergeant (above) --> War Hero (kills 25% or 30 drillers, whichever is greater)
or
Private --> Lieutenant (above) --> Captain (1.3 drillers/driller) --> Colonel (1.5 drillers/driller) --> General (2 drillers/driller)

Something like that.
If you compare this to the current game, the War Hero (20 drillers/combat) is rarely used because it is relatively weak in comparison to the King (close to 1.3 drillers/driller). (I know, the sentry also is generally better than the situational hypnotist, as well.)
In this case, though, the War Hero is drastically buffed so that there are definitely situations where it would be stronger than the Major. Though the General here is considerably stronger, it would also take two additional hires to get to that strength.

A similar thing could be done with the movement tree.
Sailor: grants 1.5x movement to a sub they are on.
Ensign: grants 2x movement to a sub they are on.
Captain: grants 1.5x movement to subs within its sonar range.
Admiral: grants 1.5x movement globally.
Navigator: can change the course of its sub (like now).
Commander: can change the course of any sub within its sonar range.

And the trees:
Sailor --> Ensign --> Captain --> Admiral
Sailor --> Navigator --> Commander

That is the gist of it. I have tons of ideas, and like you TW, I love thinking about both the theory AND the execution.

I know that this is vastly different than the current game - it would be more like a Subterfuge 2.

My guess is that the devs are interested in a balance patch, which most likely involves small number tweaks or small code changes. I look forward to that because it would keep me playing.

Personally I think tycoon and kings are overpowered, (although I think the first King is balanced enough...it is every subsequent King that is the problem).

Other stacks are powerful but I think much easier to counter, and that includes generals.

gardengnome wrote:My guess is that the devs are interested in a balance patch, which most likely involves small number tweaks or small code changes. I look forward to that because it would keep me playing.

Personally I think tycoon and kings are overpowered, (although I think the first King is balanced enough...it is every subsequent King that is the problem).

Other stacks are powerful but I think much easier to counter, and that includes generals.

Maybe this is the simplest fix. Eliminate stacking kings and then 90% of the gripes are solved. right now if you get a hypno, you're almost obligated to take it since it seems like whoever gets the most kings first tends to win.

One more item added to the list. Revered Elders should neglect all local and global enemy effects. And should have no impact on your own specialists.

topkilla wrote:One more item added to the list. Revered Elders should neglect all local and global enemy effects. And should have no impact on your own specialists.

Another- Reverend Elder
- Laser Vision and Unnatural Foresight, reveals the entire map and acts as a 3 stack sentry at an outpost.
-Old people Boost Moral- All Drillers on the same sub as the Reverend Elder Gain three King Bonus in Combat

PART 1

I've mulled it all over and here is my Rendition of Specialists Changes, and my argument for each one. I'm of course willing to defend my ideas. I agree with TopKilla Quite a bit- He's thought this idea out long and hard.

I myself love the specialists- I've made a couple ones (including some answers to the King stack) and am currently working on making tutorials for new players (Currently on Hiatus due to this update)
I'm not the best player, but I know a damn lot about specialists and their various interactions, So I feel like I have something to bring to the table.

I think that we should keep in mind that we want to keep these simple for the Developers- No New Specialists, No New complex Actions or interactions. Simple Number Changes for the most part.
I'd like to reach a general Verdict upon this subject matter so that the Devs don't have to. We opened this thread so we could come to a general agreement.

Pirates- 01
Local Effect- Can Target subs in addition to bases
Local Effect- 2x Standard Subs Speed (Small change in wording allows the Pirate to catch up to Admiral's global Effect)
Local Effect- 4X Speed upon Returning Home after a victorious combat.
Bug Fix- For the love of all that is holy, can I please have my pirate back from you stringing it along with your Nav Combo?

Princess- 02
Local Effect- +50% to Standard Outpost Sonar Range. (Princess's no longer Stack)
Global Effect- The closest Princess becomes a new Queen if you lose control of your current Queen.

Infiltrator- 03- Optional
Local Effect- -20 shield charge from defending outpost
Global effect- Additional Infiltrator hires increase Infiltrators Shield Depletion by -10.

Tycoon- 04 - Optional
Global Effect- +50% Driller Production to all Factories
Local Effect- Produces an additional 3 drillers at stationed factory
Global Effect- Reduces the Energy Generators produce by 8

Admiral- 05
Global Effect- +50% speed increase to subs not carrying Specialist. (I don't know how to write this exactly Stacking has diminishing effects- If only some New Zealand Math Wizard could help me out...)
Local effect- 200% Speed

War Hero- 06
Local Effect -25 Enemy Drillers in Combat

King- 07
Global effect: For every 3 drillers owned after specialist phase, destroy 1 enemy driller in combat
Global effect: -20 to max shield charge
Local effect: +20 to max shield charge (-20 effect does not apply)
Global Effect- -50 to energy output

Reverend Elder- 08 - Optional-
Local effect: Specialists do not participate in combat, unless subs on both sides carry a Revered Elder. Sentry cannot target a sub with a Reverend Elder.

End Of Changes.

Part 2
Debate
First off- For those who just want to get rid of Stacking- Stacking is fun, and a awesome part of the game. It gives a sense of enjoyment to the game- It is a Part of Subterfuge. Its a power trip when your investment pays off. It's something I personally look forward to in the late game. Just my opinion.

Optional fixes-
I think these changes would be nice for the game personally. But to be honest I don't know what this will do to the game health. I fear that too many changes could lead to different toxic or unfun gameplay. Like an ecosystem its impossible to see what a new factor or change could do
"Buffing the Infiltrator could make the Security Chief Useless- This in turn could effect specialists that work with Inspector line and so on"

Let the List Begin-
01- The Pirate
-The Pirate can be countered by speed Specialists and Navigators- I do not However like that hiring an admiral severely limits the use of the pirate offensively for an entire territory.
- I have ran into a small bug where the Pirate tries to circumnavigate the Globe to try and catch a sub with a navigator pirate on it. As the only Specialist that can target a rogue Navigator, I feel the being able to string the pirate around the globe is frustrating- People have suggested a button. I personally would like it to return automatically as soon as it tries to run around the Globe.

02- The Princess-
- Like Topkilla I agree that stacking Vision can be very powerful- http://forums.subterfuge-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2037&start=10 (at the bottom of the page)- Instead of stacking multiple princesses in the middle of the map, I think strategically placing them at the edges of your territory to maximize their value should be encouraged.
Consider this a nerf to the Sentry- Personally I think a Sentry Princess Stack is frustrating and annoying to difficult to deal with- a single sentry princess combo has a decent enough range in my opinion (covers around 6-7 outposts) (I can write a book on how to deal with them, don't feel the need to enlighten me)
I chose not to nerf the Intelligence Officer because I feel he is underused?

03- The Infiltrator
I like Infiltrators, I would love to see them become more used. He might see more use if the King gets a nerf as Kings make this hire irrelevant. Less kings may mean more infiltrators- so This is optional

04- Tycoon
I gave him a global debuff similar to the minister of Energy. Here it is to put it in perspective- If you have 5 gens and 5 factories- 90 Drillers a Day- 400 Energy (150 Energy without any Gen)

A Tycoons would have this effect- 135 Drillers a Day - 360 Energy.
I based this off of that The MOE reduces driller production by 16%. This Debuff does the same with Generated Energy.

05- Admiral
Speed is very powerful in this game. While a 4x and beyond admirals are rare, it is devastating when it does happen. I believe this number should fall off. I don't really want an instance in the game where regular subs can move so fast that ordinary people with jobs and sleep can't have enough time to properly react.
Again I need help on how to word this and calculate a falling off.

06- War Hero-
I always saw the War hero as a threat for hire specialist- Like the threat of your enemy queen having a martyr or DA for hire. It prevents the Sentry from getting rushed. And he's one of the few promotion-able specialists withourt global ability and scaling into late game- I don't really see that as a problem. He does his job fine. I think his real purpose is to help the Sentry do his job.
So- A tiny buff for him.

07- King-
Pretty standard. I think we can mostly agree that hurting a Stacked kings ability to hold Drillers is a pretty passive way to nerf the king without completely binding and gagging him up. If everything is even and your opponent has 2 kings, he'l also be holding 100 less drillers than you. Seems pretty ok eh?

08- Reverend Elder-
I'm tired of that punk Kid taking shots at ole Gramma Teresa while my other specialists kneel down.
I find that the Reverend Elder is an Extremely difficult Specialist to balance. Completely negating specialists at a high priority is strong in the right situation. This old bag has been a savior against a Queen Slayer and a battering ram against that DA.
So a tiny buff for her.

OVERALL
I think there are hidden buffs inside all these Nerfs.
The Tinkerer and MOE- With these energy consuming specialist is going to see some love as they counteract the nerfs to the Tycoon and King. He may be mandatory if you start stacking kings. This is good I think. Thats one non offensive hire that a person needs to use to get to Maximum BEEFCAKE OVERLORD KING STACKS.

The Sentry- He received some indirect Nerfs- Vision depletion and Gramma Striking back could hurt him a bit. I see him often however, and I think I will see him even more if non promotional specialists become popular?

Security Chief- Mixed
Infiltrators could shut this guy down, but with Admirals and Kings becoming nerfed some folks might rather hire this fella?

About the pirate chasing too long:
It must also be avoided that the pirate returns too soon. That way you can easily outmaneuver the pirate with the navigator in the night, when the pirate returned you take another run. I dont want to stay awake the whole night to make sure I can intercept the navigator with the pirate. Without a button it would be fine if the pirate follows at least for some minimum hours, so you can at least sleep for 8 hours

/tombolala

I like janitor's suggestions except I think there should only be one King at most, like only one queen at most. The first king already has a significant drawback with the loss of shields which balances the king's offense well. That is not the problem, the subsequent Kings are the problem and I don't think 50 driller penalties are the solution.

As for the pirate, it should be able to catch any sub, even navigators (unless the sub makes it to a port). I think the pirate moving faster and faster every hour is the solution.