Im very sorry for the rant it's just something I'm tired of dealing with- and there quite a few proposed solutions and ways to fix it.
Again sorry lol

jaykay077 wrote:V3xt is correct; the General also takes effect after the specialist phase. So you should have 12 drillers left after specialists. THEN the general and King do their work.

• General
  Global: General destroys 10 enemy drillers in each combat in which you have a specialist present after the specialists phase. Local: Travels 50% faster than ordinary subs..
• King
  Global: Destroys 1 enemy driller for every 3 of your drillers that remain after specialist phase in every combat you are involved. Reduces max shield charge of all your outposts by 20, except at King's outpost, where it is increased by 20.

Interesting.

The way I took this was that the General's ability works during the specialist phase, but ONLY if you have a specialist phase present after the specialist phase. Because It doesn't specify when the loss is to take place.

All global effects take place after specialist phase, which is why a revered elder is ineffective against Kings, Generals, and Engineers.

tw2000 wrote:

topkilla wrote:

kevlargolem wrote:Admiral is OP, Tycoon is OP, King is OP, and... *drum roll* Minister of Energy is also OP. Engineers might also be OP, but I havnt experimented with them enough to say for sure.

So the take-away from this is basically that the promotioned specs are OP.

As always, you miss the point friend. There's not an issue with the specialists being OP. There's an issue with specialist stacking being consistently inconsistent.

The Minster of energy does not have this problem. It (1) has a negative ability associated with it. (2) That negative ability stacks. (3) The negative and positive ability are directly related. This is the logical way for the specialist to stack. You trade one thing off for the other. In this case, slightly less production for an increase in supply cap.


The King is a mess right now. And after executing an extremely tactical maneuver last night, I realized that the King doesn't even work like it's supposed to. Which is to calculate after the specialist phase. It calculates based off of the initial sub count regardless of any sub loss during the specialist phase.

But even if the King did function like it's suppose to, it's not balanced because the positive ability is insanely powerful, the negative ability doesn't stack, and the positive and negative abilities are unrelated.


The Admiral doesn't make sense. It's fine the way it is without a negative ability, but there is 0 logic behind the speed boost stacking. It's the only speed boost in the game that stacks. And with only 4 hires, 99% of your subs will travel at the same speed as the helmsman.


The Tycoon isn't used as often as it should be right now. But soon enough players will realize it's an awesome specialist. And since there is no negative ability, theres no reason not to stack them. Same goes for Engineers. But they are used at a slightly higher rate.

A few inaccuracies in here.
(1) Firstly, the MoE's negative effect does not stack indefinitely. You could have 2 allies with one having 7 MoE's (which is of course very unlikely but still possible) for storage with the other feeding him drillers, in which case the 7th MoE doesn't do any negative stacking.

(2) Secondly,if you think driller cap and driller production rate are related, the surely attack and defence are related to some degree?

(3) Then When you said 'this is the logical way for the specialist to stack' I think it applies to all, but only, global effects.

(4)The Kings positive ability is also not insanely powerful, just by itself it's not much better (if better at all) than specs such as the tycoon. It's only problem is the lack of negative stacking on the second or later king. (And possibly point 3)

(5) Also about 20-40% of your subs will contain a specialist.
The reason tycoon isn't used all that much right now is because many people don't want to give up the ability of the smuggler for the tycoon.

(1) As Vext said, your argument is illogical. It's also inaccurate, as the MoE does stack indefinitely, but thats besides the point. Which was that the MoE increases the Supply Cap and decreases production by one. If you were to stack them, Yes, you would have a greatly increased supply, but it would come at the cost of drastically decreasing your production rate.


(2) Everything is related and unrelated. Supply Cap and Production are related. Attack and Defense are related. But some things are related more than others. When you get down to specifics, things get tricky.

Yes, the King is an "attack" specialist. So on the surface you can make the argument that removing the shields, therefore lowering the defense, is an acceptable solution. What happens when you get specific, and look at what the King actually does, you see that he increase the number of drillers in each combat by 33%/per King.

Removing -20 Shields per King is no longer the most direct relation to make. Since the King operates based on driller count, the most direct negative ability to counter his positive ability is to decrease the supply cap.


(3) I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


(4) I agree. The King is not insanely powerful by itself. I've never argued that it was. My argument has been that theres a problem with stacking specialists in general.


(5A) As far as the Admiral goes, you didn't address the fact that no other speed boost stacks. And when you have 2 Admirals, the 1x Speed for specialist subs is a nonissue because you have 2 free Helmsman.

I'm currently in a game right now where its 12 hours into Day 6 and one player has 3 Admirals. His basic subs are currently traveling at 2.5x Speed...

(5B) The reason the Tycoon is not used often right now is not because people don't want to give up a smuggler, its because everyone is using Kings.

kevlargolem wrote:

topkilla wrote:

kevlargolem wrote:Admiral is OP, Tycoon is OP, King is OP, and... *drum roll* Minister of Energy is also OP. Engineers might also be OP, but I havnt experimented with them enough to say for sure.

So the take-away from this is basically that the promotioned specs are OP.

As always, you miss the point friend. There's not an issue with the specialists being OP. There's an issue with specialist stacking being consistently inconsistent.

Once again you've taken me out of context- either because you didnt read what I said, or deliberately. See the rest of what I said in the following quote:

kevlargolem wrote:The King is different though. Not because King itself is so OP, but as discussed previously, the stacking is just ridiculous because the negative cant stack.

I deliberately ignored it giving you the benefit of the doubt for one reason or another. Can't remember what that reason was now.

kevlargolem wrote:

topkilla wrote:The Minster of energy does not have this problem. It (1) has a negative ability associated with it. (2) That negative ability stacks. (3) The negative and positive ability are directly related. This is the logical way for the specialist to stack. You trade one thing off for the other. In this case, slightly less production for an increase in supply cap.

You're right, the MoE doesnt have this problem, its OP without even needing to stack. All you need is 1.

(I dont want to derail the conversation by changing the topic, BUT if you do want to see a stacking problem, along with a negative which isnt related to the benefit, a negative which doesnt really get much worse with stacking, how about multiple Tinkerers stacked up? Add a king, queen, or sec chief into that mix, and its just so OP. ...and tinkerer is only 1 hire ...and is literally the only spec in the game that does what it does, other than its promoted counterpart.)

I'm not stating that one specialist or another is OP. I'm stating that (1) there's a problem with specialist stacking. (2) Specialist stacking is consistently inconsistent.

I don't think theres too big a problem with MoE or Tinker. If anything, only 1 Tinker should be able to "boost" supply cap per base. But the Tinker is certainly much less of a problem than the King or Admirals.

kevlargolem wrote:

topkilla wrote:The Admiral doesn't make sense. It's fine the way it is without a negative ability, but there is 0 logic behind the speed boost stacking. It's the only speed boost in the game that stacks. And with only 4 hires, 99% of your subs will travel at the same speed as the helmsman.

Agreed, however I think youve actually undervalued how OP it is. 2 of them is 50% + 50% = 100% = 2x. Thus, you only need 2 to match the speed of a helmsman. If you have 4, un-speced drills move as fast as a smuggler. Please correct me if my math is wrong.

Like Math said, 2 Admirals = 4 Hires = 2x Speed.

kevlargolem wrote:

topkilla wrote:The Tycoon isn't used as often as it should be right now. But soon enough players will realize it's an awesome specialist. And since there is no negative ability, theres no reason not to stack them.

The natural drill cap is why you dont stack them. People dont realize how many drills their own cap "kills"

People don't use it for the sole reason that they don't know how. Once they see someone do it, and do it well a few games. They will figure it out.

topkilla wrote:Yes, the King is an "attack" specialist. So on the surface you can make the argument that removing the shields, therefore lowering the defense, is an acceptable solution. What happens when you get specific, and look at what the King actually does, you see that he increase the number of drillers in each combat by 33%/per King.

Just A tiny tiny nit pick here, I might argue that the King does one better than 'effectively increase the number of drillers' -and give those drillers a "Driller Shield" (almost like a moving outpost with an Inspector on it, where the Shield Maximum Capacity is 33% of driller count)

I'll just leave now, you guys go ahead and keep going at it
K thx bye

janitorialduties wrote:

topkilla wrote:Yes, the King is an "attack" specialist. So on the surface you can make the argument that removing the shields, therefore lowering the defense, is an acceptable solution. What happens when you get specific, and look at what the King actually does, you see that he increase the number of drillers in each combat by 33%/per King.

Just A tiny tiny nit pick here, I might argue that the King does one better than 'effectively increase the number of drillers' -and give those drillers a "Driller Shield" (almost like a moving outpost with an Inspector on it, where the Shield Maximum Capacity is 33% of driller count)

I'll just leave now, you guys go ahead and keep going at it
K thx bye

The king also does more than just increase your effective number of drillers. It is also 'anti shield' meaning that you can kill drillers at an outpost even if you normally wouldn't do any damage due to the shields of that outpost/inspector. Good against turtles but definitely more effective than normal drills.

The problem isn't the king itself, it's the stacked abilities when someone has more than one. The way to fix it is either make another specialist invade multiple are aquired, or not stack it to 2 drillers whenever a second is promoted.

topkilla wrote:

tw2000 wrote:

topkilla wrote:
As always, you miss the point friend. There's not an issue with the specialists being OP. There's an issue with specialist stacking being consistently inconsistent.

The Minster of energy does not have this problem. It (1) has a negative ability associated with it. (2) That negative ability stacks. (3) The negative and positive ability are directly related. This is the logical way for the specialist to stack. You trade one thing off for the other. In this case, slightly less production for an increase in supply cap.


The King is a mess right now. And after executing an extremely tactical maneuver last night, I realized that the King doesn't even work like it's supposed to. Which is to calculate after the specialist phase. It calculates based off of the initial sub count regardless of any sub loss during the specialist phase.

But even if the King did function like it's suppose to, it's not balanced because the positive ability is insanely powerful, the negative ability doesn't stack, and the positive and negative abilities are unrelated.


The Admiral doesn't make sense. It's fine the way it is without a negative ability, but there is 0 logic behind the speed boost stacking. It's the only speed boost in the game that stacks. And with only 4 hires, 99% of your subs will travel at the same speed as the helmsman.


The Tycoon isn't used as often as it should be right now. But soon enough players will realize it's an awesome specialist. And since there is no negative ability, theres no reason not to stack them. Same goes for Engineers. But they are used at a slightly higher rate.

A few inaccuracies in here.
(1) Firstly, the MoE's negative effect does not stack indefinitely. You could have 2 allies with one having 7 MoE's (which is of course very unlikely but still possible) for storage with the other feeding him drillers, in which case the 7th MoE doesn't do any negative stacking.

(2) Secondly,if you think driller cap and driller production rate are related, the surely attack and defence are related to some degree?

(3) Then When you said 'this is the logical way for the specialist to stack' I think it applies to all, but only, global effects.

(4)The Kings positive ability is also not insanely powerful, just by itself it's not much better (if better at all) than specs such as the tycoon. It's only problem is the lack of negative stacking on the second or later king. (And possibly point 3)

(5) Also about 20-40% of your subs will contain a specialist.
The reason tycoon isn't used all that much right now is because many people don't want to give up the ability of the smuggler for the tycoon.

(1) As Vext said, your argument is illogical. It's also inaccurate, as the MoE does stack indefinitely, but thats besides the point. Which was that the MoE increases the Supply Cap and decreases production by one. If you were to stack them, Yes, you would have a greatly increased supply, but it would come at the cost of drastically decreasing your production rate.


(2) Everything is related and unrelated. Supply Cap and Production are related. Attack and Defense are related. But some things are related more than others. When you get down to specifics, things get tricky.

Yes, the King is an "attack" specialist. So on the surface you can make the argument that removing the shields, therefore lowering the defense, is an acceptable solution. What happens when you get specific, and look at what the King actually does, you see that he increase the number of drillers in each combat by 33%/per King.

Removing -20 Shields per King is no longer the most direct relation to make. Since the King operates based on driller count, the most direct negative ability to counter his positive ability is to decrease the supply cap.


(3) I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


(4) I agree. The King is not insanely powerful by itself. I've never argued that it was. My argument has been that theres a problem with stacking specialists in general.


(5A) As far as the Admiral goes, you didn't address the fact that no other speed boost stacks. And when you have 2 Admirals, the 1x Speed for specialist subs is a nonissue because you have 2 free Helmsman.

I'm currently in a game right now where its 12 hours into Day 6 and one player has 3 Admirals. His basic subs are currently traveling at 2.5x Speed...

(5B) The reason the Tycoon is not used often right now is not because people don't want to give up a smuggler, its because everyone is using Kings.

So basically what you are trying to argue is that you make no mistakes.
All I said was that you had some inaccuracies and you come up with some arguments as to why they aren't inaccuracies.
I carefully picked out some things that were wrong and I'll tell you why your rebuttals are wrong.

1. I never said my argument had a great possibility of happening, but it is perfectly logical (definition: of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument - Google). It is accurate as well. I think you misunderstood me. I am saying that the 7th MoE cannot decrease your driller production anymore (unless you have funding or a foreman). And any MoE's after the 7th don't either, because you only have 6 drillers per 8 hours to start with. I don't recommend you argue with me regarding my logic. My thinking can be some of the most systematic and logical out of everyone I know. (And if that's not enough, I am participating in the International Mathematical Olympiad representing my country right now).

2. You said 'unrelated'. I said 'related to some degree'. Case closed.

3. I was just trying to say that what you said about the King should apply for all global abilities, not just the king.

4. I'm trying to say that the King's positive effect isn't insanely powerful (which you argued against). I provided the single king as an example of why the first king isn't powerful. It's because the next kings don't have a negative effect that those are powerful, not because the positive ability is too good. (That's why I provided the example of the single King).

5A. Um you aren't really rebutting what I said, which was that 20-40% of your subs will contain a specialist. You seemed to think that 1% of your subs will contain a specialist. I understand that it was probably a hyperbole, but they are never used in debates because hyperboles hide the information you are really trying to say. They make it vague, and you want explicit.

5B. What if you didn't have a hypnotist? Why aren't people promoting their smugglers to Tycoons then? I have asked many people for their smugglers in exchange for other specialists, and they have replied that they don't want to because their smugglers are busy.

tw2000, yes a 7th MoE does not decrease your driller production any more(unless it gives you negative production, has anyone ever actually had 7?), but because of the relation to driller cap and production, if your production is 0, your driller cap may as well be 0 to. Let's look at it this way. You have 5 factories and 3 generators. Your production is 90 a day, and your cap in 300. At this rate, it would take 3.3 days to reach your cap. If you hire a MoE, your production is 75, but your cap is 600, so it would take 8 days to reach your cap. Now lets say you have 6 of them. Your cap is 2100, and your production is 0. 2100/0 is an error, because you will never reach cap. Add a 7th one and it is still an error. Sure your production isn't decreased any more, but it would take an infinite amount of time for you to reach your cap. I guess technically there isn't a disadvantage to hiring a 7th one, but there's also no benefit to hiring him. This is not like the king, where no matter how many you have, it always makes your drillers more powerful, but it doesn't keep making your shields less powerful.