I see absolutely no problem at all with someone being able to kill a mine. If they want to sacrifice a Navigator and use up a specialist selection with a Martyr to due so, then you're going to lose a mine.

It's not a tactic I would bother with since in almost every situation the is probably more Admiral powerful for the end game, but that seems like a reasonable trade.

As you point out, there is a counter available, the Pirate.

The fact that you don't have a guaranteed way to to stop the combo does not make it unreasonably powerful, it means you need to strategize around it. That may mean taking their mine, building another one, sending in your own martyr...

The loss of a mine does not mean you are done for in the game. If it's so well times and reinforced that you can never recover, then you've been out maneuvered. It's not like the same tools aren't available to you.

There is a counter measure already built into the game. If you fail to use it effectively, or win through the attack, that's on you.

FateCreatr wrote:The fact that you don't have a guaranteed way to to stop the combo does not make it unreasonably powerful, it means you need to strategize around it. That may mean taking their mine, building another one, sending in your own martyr...

These options are fairly irrelevant in dealing with this particular attack as you could do those things anyway to increase your chances of winning. Unlike the back-and-forth of territory control, there is nothing you can do to reverse the loss of your mine via a Martyr.

FateCreatr wrote: It's not like the same tools aren't available to you.

There is a counter measure already built into the game. If you fail to use it effectively, or win through the attack, that's on you.

This is not always the case, though. Specialists are random and therefore it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a player may very well not have either the option to use this tactic or the option to counter it.

Additionally, I also strongly feel that players should be able to bypass a Pirate if it does not serve a specific need for them given the game state without worrying that not doing so will open them up to this type of attack later in the game. If there is 'one true choice' in a given selection of 3 units, it means the balance is not correct.

My point is fairly simply that there should be various, strategic ways to counter any given tactic in a game. That's what makes strategy games great.

The other combat interactions that exist in the game are extremely deep and offer a lot of fantastic counters to every other tactic. The way the other specialists interact with each other, drillers, and shields is very complex and has a great deal of depth to determine the winner or loser of a specific combat.

The Martyr is really the only specialist in the game that has such a binary result that circumvents the other elements of the game. That would almost be OK if not combined with its completely unique mechanic of permanently destroying a node. Basically, I feel like the Martyr does not 'play nice' with the game rules relative to the other units in the game.

Oddly, the Martyr is also fairly close to useless without a Navigator given the ease of which it can be countered by single-driller subs and the like. I'm actually hard-pressed to think of a scenario where the Martyr is really a good strategic choice unless you are planning on using the Navigator+Martyr combo.

FateCreatr wrote:The fact that you don't have a guaranteed way to to stop the combo does not make it unreasonably powerful, it means you need to strategize around it. That may mean taking their mine, building another one, sending in your own martyr...

Jayde wrote:My point is fairly simply that there should be various, strategic ways to counter any given tactic in a game. That's what makes strategy games great.

Seems to me, Jayde, that you're saying the same thing as FateCreatr.

Jayde wrote:Oddly, the Martyr is also fairly close to useless without a Navigator given the ease of which it can be countered by single-driller subs and the like. I'm actually hard-pressed to think of a scenario where the Martyr is really a good strategic choice unless you are planning on using the Navigator+Martyr combo.

It's also useful defensively. It combines the shielding property of a Saboteur with its destructiveness. A Smuggler moving a Martyr into place in time to clear the outpost from its radius can destroy an attacking sub loaded with drillers and specialists (or multiple subs) instead of just turning it back.

The martyr and its counters are very well balanced. If the majority of the community doesn't like them, removal would be a better option then correcting for players who can't get past a battle to win the war.

If it were up to me, it would stay as is.

You mean counter, rather than counters, right?

But, really, they aren't all that balanced--at least compared to any of the other specialists--which is the point I'm trying to make.

Yes, I get that you like the game a lot. That doesn't necessarily mean that nothing needs to be re-balanced at all--Ron has said himself more than a few times that a specialists still need balancing, which is why I felt that this feedback was relevant.

In particular, this combo is one of the worst 'types' of balance issues that can exist in a strategy game: feeling of hopelessness and 'cheap' losses. Basically, a lot of players that lose a game due to this will probably be wary of playing another game. It's a feel-bad combo.

czechcongo wrote:Seems to me, Jayde, that you're saying the same thing as FateCreatr.

It's also useful defensively. It combines the shielding property of a Saboteur with its destructiveness. A Smuggler moving a Martyr into place in time to clear the outpost from its radius can destroy an attacking sub loaded with drillers and specialists (or multiple subs) instead of just turning it back.

I don't think we disagree on the premise of a strategy game inasmuch as I don't believe the 'counters' he is outlining in regard to the Martyr are true counters or really relevant to the specific issue. (e.g. "just counter-attack them" or "build another mine" are not counters, they just happen to be the next thing you are forced to do and could do similar or greater effect regardless of the event occurring.)

The sole counter to a Martyr+Navigator combo killing your mine is a Pirate. That's it. If you don't have a Pirate, you are hosed. Enjoy the feeling of helplessness while you lose your mine.

I feel that is extremely weak mechanically compared to the rest of the game's more complex combat/specialist interactions; where basically anything can be countered, or counter-countered, or counter-counter-countered in a very mix-and-match way.

I do agree that it is decent in a defensive capacity to potentially stave off large attacks--although, in my experience, can be really unpredictable in terms of effectiveness if you start jousting with small-sub vanguard launches. In this capacity, it serves a very similar role (and has similar issues) as the Saboteur.

Lastly, my argument would be this: since adding something like a repair option would do little other than balance out the negative feeling of this combo, what is the argument being made against adding additional counters? I would argue that if the Martyr is only a useful unit so long as it is taking advantage of its lack of available counters, it is not a very positive unit to have in the game.

I suppose the underlying debate is really two-fold: What is an appropriate amount or type of counter-move to ANY action, and what role is the Martyr intended to play.

I'll focus on the second half: If the Martyr is supposed to be the ultimate offense and outpost-removal, why does it need a navigator to be delivered with reasonable success? (almost every other delivery method can be easily foiled by someone that knows about sub-to-sub combat). If it IS intended to be the final doom of an outpost, it needs a better delivery mechanism than an additional random specialist to combo with.

I'm going to make a leap here and say that in its current state, the Martyr is NOT designed to remove enemy outposts since the situations when it can reasonably be expected to work against an aware opponent are extremely limited. Then, if it is not supposed to remove enemy outposts (I'll just assume enemy outposts), then what role is it meant to play? Psychological warfare? Mutually assured destruction? Newbie torture? If it is NOT for enemy outpost removal, then to retain it's other functions (whatever they are) I would suggest that it not be able to have it's path altered by the Navigator.

we can see both sides here, and while we don't think it's a big deal (good for you if you managed to pull it off!) it can make for a pretty shitty / helpless experience for the person being targeted.

we think what we'll do is make it so that if someone takes control of your mine you lose 20%, but if it just blows up and stays yours, you don't. that way you can slow someone down with a martyr/navigator combo, but you won't make them lose 20% of the neptunium.

Soooo... I went to fix this, and then I realized that when one of your mines is destroyed, you never lose the 20% Neptunium. It's strictly when someone takes it over.

If a Martyr blows up your mine, it's not a mine anymore, so if you later lose control of that outpost, you don't get the 20% penalty.

So we're going to leave it alone for now. Heck, this could even open the door to a scorched earth defense strategy where you blow up your own mine to an unstoppable attack just to prevent the loss of Np

That's very good to know, although I still feel like the loss of income is typically the worst factor in tight games.

Since the cost of mine creation continues to go up regardless, replacing the mine (and finding a place to put it) is an expensive problem to solve.

For instance, if you have 3 mines (seems typical from the games I've played so far) and lose one this way, replacing one blown up will cost 200 drillers, plus the loss of Np income during the time it takes you to get 200 drillers into the correct location (could be a day or two, depending on your situation and how far out you were able to prepare for it.)

200 drillers can be quite a lot depending on your army status, which is why I was suggesting a 'repair' option that could possibly be balanced a little easier. (e.g. is 50 the right number? 75? 100? Who knows!)

Anyway, thanks for taking a look!