ucross wrote:List is so far off. Too much to critique. See "http://subterfugehub.com/specialists.html" for a high level perspective of specialist balance.

I embedded the link properly so that lazy people will actually read it.

When you said high level, I expected less errors. Not sure "choosen" is actually a word. It had a good point though, I'd totally forgotten about how useful it can be to promote an Inspector to a War Hero. It missed a few nice combos you can use with the Inspector though, such as a smuggler, and there was no mention of using it to take an enemy outpost and immediately have full shield.

It does have a few flaws though. It rates the pirate as better than all but 7 specialists, and I distinctly remember someone was talking about how the pirate is very weak. Also, on a scale of 1-10, none of the specialists were ever actually rated at 1 or 10. I also found it odd that an inspector was rated at 4, while a saboteur managed a 6. In fact the saboteur was rated greater than or equal to 12 of the 20 unprompted specialists.

I'd like to point out one last thing in Kevlar's defence. The link you provided doesn't rate promoted specialists independently, and other than a few oddities, most specialist are ranked similarly on both websites anyway. Although the other one is less specific, seeing as of the 20 specialists ranked, on a rating from 2-9(because that's what it really is) 12 of them were given ratings between 4 and 7. Which means the average specialist was rated as, wait for it... average.

I think the saboteurs should be higher on the list. He can bail you out of losing an outpost or can even help you take an outpost of you launch a good counter attack. He certainly deserves to be higher than last place. You put princesses, intellegence officers, and revered elder all above him. I think he deserves a little more credit.

bangerz wrote:This guy has a huge ego.

Are we talking about Kevlargolem or Ucross?

roadkiehl wrote:

bangerz wrote:This guy has a huge ego.

Are we talking about Kevlargolem or Ucross?

Kevlar. My god every other forum topic is some sort of guide written by him.

bangerz wrote:

roadkiehl wrote:

bangerz wrote:This guy has a huge ego.

Are we talking about Kevlargolem or Ucross?

Kevlar. My god every other forum topic is some sort of guide written by him.

There are only 2. And this one is just a sub-part of the other one, which is in its own thread for convenience.

bangerz wrote:

roadkiehl wrote:

bangerz wrote:This guy has a huge ego.

Are we talking about Kevlargolem or Ucross?

Kevlar. My god every other forum topic is some sort of guide written by him.

I actually find his guides very helpful. He's one of the best players in the game, if you look at leaderboards. I'd like to try to learn everything I can from him.

Woah Woah Woah intelligence officer is 23 and 26?! Are we playing the same game?

mathwhiz9 wrote:In overall value, I think general (14) should be above MoE (8). I've never really liked MoE. ... Two of them makes every specialist a war hero, pretty much. Use it with a diplomat? Insane kills.

MoE can also seal the win. If you are just dominating and you only enemy is the cap... MoE kills your final enemy. Also some enemies are very eager to turtle and will leave your drills alive, capping you from producing on your new factories, then leaving you too stretched too thin to kill the turtle. MoE is also critical on those bastardly factory heavy maps. 16% reduction to production is not to be ignored, but its not as much of a reduction as it is to have indefinite numbers of drills destroyed by cap.

General does synergize well with diplomat, but its a totally different style of spec use than what I like to do. I like 3 strong offensive specs stacked up on 1 death sub, not spreading them out all over the place to fight solo. Also stacking is indeed very nice with Gen. but stacking basically all the promotable specs is very nice.

rosslessness wrote:I find it strange their is no security chief on the turtle list.

One of the saddest things about Sec Chief is that the spec he combos best with is inspector-- the very spec he promotes from. So in a turtle situation, I would much prefer to have inspector + a new defensive spec, rather than spend 2 hires for 20 shield capacity and sacrificing my inspector.

chariot rider wrote:I think the saboteurs should be higher on the list. ... You put princesses, intellegence officers, and revered elder all above him.

Its hard to rate the bottom of the list, because I rarely use them or see them because of how bad they are.

The reason I put princess and int. off. higher is because they synergize with Sentry. Also Int. Off. is good late in the game because it can allow you to see almost the entire map and acts as a lookout for any last second treachery. Revered Elder is higher because how good she is at making/breaking turtles. Sab is good for making a turtle, but generally you dont want to preemptively hire something that will help you turtle. You usually want to draw Sab when you are already turtled, and at that point you can look to the turtle list to make selections.

kevlargolem wrote:The reason I put princess and int. off. higher is because they synergize with Sentry. Also Int. Off. is good late in the game because it can allow you to see almost the entire map and acts as a lookout for any last second treachery. Revered Elder is higher because how good she is at making/breaking turtles. Sab is good for making a turtle, but generally you dont want to preemptively hire something that will help you turtle. You usually want to draw Sab when you are already turtled, and at that point you can look to the turtle list to make selections.

Ok, but what about the Sab's obvious tactical advantage of forcing your opponent to break up their attack? Or what about its great synergies, such as with the General or Sentry?
The Sab does a better job than the Double Agent 9 times out of 10, since it gives you two, and the Double Agent depends on your opponent making a blunder.
With regards to it being only good for turtling, I beg to differ. Yes, it's a defensive specialist. But how about its ability to repel attacks long enough for you to counter? And how about its value as a deterrent?

As an afterthought, since this is my first time commenting on this thread, I'll toss out my general opinion too. I think that by ranking specialists, I think you blur what exactly specialists are. And what they are is niche. Every single one of them. Some of them have more general uses (pun intended), yes. But they all serve a specific purpose, and they are all better in some situations and worse in others. There's a reason they're called "Specialists" and not "Agents."

To be very clear, I don't think that the game balance is perfect. Yes some specialists are more useful more often, but it's not as stratified as a ranking system implies. And I think you know this, since you brushed on the "offensive, defensive, utility" ratings. However, my impression is that the ratings place too definite a value system on what is a very situational game.

roadkiehl wrote:Ok, but what about the Sab's obvious tactical advantage of forcing your opponent to break up their attack? Or what about its great synergies, such as with the General or Sentry?
The Sab does a better job than the Double Agent 9 times out of 10, since it gives you two, and the Double Agent depends on your opponent making a blunder.
With regards to it being only good for turtling, I beg to differ. Yes, it's a defensive specialist. But how about its ability to repel attacks long enough for you to counter? And how about its value as a deterrent?

1. Breaking up their attack is only useful if you also have other per-fight specs to take advantage (yes, great in turtles), or if 1 missing segment is enough to win.
2. With general, I'd still rather be buffing 1 spec who also serves a strong role and now gets 10 kills as bonus, rather than 2 Sabs who basically only serve to get more buff. Its not an easy decision though, and yeah Sabs go up in value with Gen., but I also ranked Gen. as a middling spec, not something I'd deliberately build towards. With Sentry, I'd rather have Princess
3. Alone, Sab is a delay, not a deterrent. Even in turtle situations, I'll send my force 3 times from a close base if segmenting into smaller subs is not a winning move(meanwhile my army continues to roll in and get bigger, while the turtler is either capped or producing very slowly-- only new queen hires are a concern). This is why I rate DA higher, because DA actually kills drills and can steal specs. And in a defensive position, the reactor's advantage means you basically wont have to face that DA again, even if theres no way to steal it back.
____
On your larger final point- I tried to emphasize at the beggining that this list is built on generalities and averages. If I happen to see a chance to combo a general with a diplomat and hope later for assassins, I'll probably do it. It's just that that combo I've never even tried because I how mid-to-low I rate the individual parts of that combo.

But I do hire specs low and even last on my list when the time calls for it. I hired an Int. Off. toward the end of my last game. I've hired Sabs. I've hired many Infiltrators (regrettably).

The list is not to say that if #s 6. and 15. and 11. are available to hire, you should always hire #6. Its to say that usually you should, not always.