SUBTERFUGE Forums

To clarify, I do not mean players who make the King Specialist. I'm specifically referring to the act of trying to choose who will win the game when you yourself cannot win.

To explain, I'm currently in a game right now with 7 players (the 8th autoresigned)

4 of the 7 players are in the running to win the game, with the other 3 pretty much out as they haven't made any mines and can't take any fast enough to place.

So now 2 of those 3 players are sending hundreds of their drillers as gifts, and deactivating the shields on their outposts for 1 of the 4 players in the running to win, to receive and take.

Now personally, this bothers me enough that even though I'm in first place I'm dropping everything and sacrificing defense and probably a chance at winning, just so that I can start hurting the player who's receiving these gifts and outposts, to stop THEM from winning, because I consider the entire situation to be relatively unsportsmanlike.

So my question to you is, how do you feel about that? Would you gladly throw everything you have at one player in an attempt to gain them the victory if you yourself are out of the running?

How would you react if you saw players doing this for one of your competitors? Would you bunker down and hope you won anyways despite them gaining hundreds more drillers than you every day right before your eyes... or would you try to take the fight to them and make sure that even if you don't win, they don't either?

If they are an alliance and you're #1, then by them sending gifts to their friend to try to beat you that is a viable strategy for them to overtake you. In some cases opponents don't care if they loose as long as player X isn't first. This seems like it is the case. I see nothing wrong with this, it is a strategic alliance trying to win against their opponent. If they really wanted they could have attacked you but maybe attacking you would take too much time and building mines is faster to overtake you.

I once was in a game where player R and me both decided to attack player W.
Player W had some specialists that forced player R to send several small subs, and player W got lots of notifications. In between all of those, player W didn't see the one notification about me attacking him as well, with one larger sub. So we were chatting quite nicely, and I felt the situation getting awkward because at some point he was gonna notice me attacking him. But the conversation was genuinly nice.

So when he did notice, he laughed and saw the fun of it. Being squeezed early game by me and player R (the most experienced player in this game ), he saw no future in the game. And because for some reason he felt sympathetic towards me, he decided to actually help me. I didn't win that game, I got second, but one or two other people might have ranked above me without the help of player W.

Now is this kingmaking? Yes it is, I couldn't have reached 2nd spot that easily myself, and morally I didn't get used to the situation for the entire game. I felt guilty. However, it's also a consequence of diplomacy. Of course I never thought about him helping me after my attack, but the fact that I had fun talks with him turned him into my partner instead of my opponent. We never played together before, we're not friends in real life, etc. It was his in-game decision to help me get as high as he could.

So if one of the players in your game was able to form an alliance earlier in the game, or convinced those two kingmakers to help him later in the game, that means he used his diplomacy better/more than you did.
(Wether you find that he used it better is subjective, but he's certainly getting things done!)

I also have another way to look at it: if it were real war, even if you can't win yourself, you'll want your ally to win. So you'll try to share resources if that makes 'the right side' win the war.

Is it annoying to see one of the players about your size get lots of gifts, giving him an advantage all of the sudden when you can't have that advantage? Yes, very much! But I also think it's part of the game...

If I were in your shoes I would probably indeed change my goal in this game. Winning might not be possible, but if you could keep him from winning, and possibly go down together, that could be an achievement as well.

If I were in your shoes I would probably indeed change my goal in this game. Winning might not be possible, but if you could keep him from winning, and possibly go down together, that could be an achievement as well.

yep this is definitely the goal now.

I agree with you and the other poster that this is part of the game, even it if sucks to be on the other end of the player getting given all this stuff.

Still, I think I can make it so he doesn't place in the top 3, and if I can do that I'll be happy.

but if you're in first, and the other players are conceding everything to the other player to win, can't you just play defensively and get 2nd place? That seems like the smartest thing to do. You got out-diplomacy'd, it happens, be happy with second place.

6payh wrote:but if you're in first, and the other players are conceding everything to the other player to win, can't you just play defensively and get 2nd place? That seems like the smartest thing to do. You got out-diplomacy'd, it happens, be happy with second place.

Nah I'm in first for right now, but there are two others players who are in contention for the win. I am focusing on the guy who's being gifted everything, and I expect the other two players to get first and second. I'll get third because I already have a lead, and the guy being gifted everything with get fourth.

I'll be happy with 3rd.

My only problem with Kingmaking is if some people join a game together with the intent of giving player A everything so he will dominate, and then they use him as protection so the entire group all gets good ratings. This is more of a multi boxing issue though.

There are different degrees of Kingmaking.

-Theres the smaller degree, where a mostly destroyed player gifts his remaining outposts and all specs to someone other than his attacker. This is very common and you will see this all the time.
--This can usually be powered through, either by just out-mining, or carrying your momentum right through the destroyed player and into the gift receiver (if they refuse to share any of the spoils).

-The more serious degree, where one player gifts another player right off the bat is a bigger problem.
--First, this is a very good indicator that they are multiboxing or multigame dealer, and should be reported for breaking the rules if you can get confirmation. I disagree with Vext in that while it does make a King, the pawns tend to not rate very highly because of how much they have to sacrifice. This means while the King might move up in the rankings, the pawns do not. So aim to place second, move up in the rankings, and move above the ratings that the pawns can achieve so that the players you are up against next wont be people who use that strategy.

Also keep in mind in both degrees, Kingmaking is a very unpopular move to those not involved- use this unpopularity to get as many other people who arnt involved to gang up against the royalty. This won't always work, I'm not gunna spout false bravado about how "all you need to do is this." Its a tough position, and theres a good reason its against the rules to manufacture it with mulitboxing or multigame deals.

True, the pawn often doesn't get a good rating. I was thinking more from a domination perspective where you can do alright sometimes just by not dying. I'd also like to mention that Kingmaking can be reduced if you have a nav pirate in play, as you can intercept some those lovely gifts for yourself. I've run into a few players that weren't aware you could steal gifts like that.

The problem with free will, people can do what others don't like.

Me, I really dislike it. I'd rather stand and fight whoever is attacking me until elimination than give up and send things down the road to the 'nice' player who didn't attack me.

It's happened in most of my games though. The victor doesn't get the spoils, but does get the factories, generators & mines usually since they are driving forward and everything starts going away.

I think the best thing you can do is deal with it as likely whenever you are putting maximum pressure on an opponent. Some planning can hamper the gifting (if you have speed specialists or just an admiral boost, sometimes you can pick off slower departing gift subs and steal them).