SUBTERFUGE Forums

So to first make that very clear: I do not consider the navigator to be too strong per se and would not have a problem with something that makes him better after the suggested change.

However, the navigator is totally fun draining for me. He completly counteracts the whole game design of having about at least 8 hours to react to everything (depending on sub speed and flying distance).

So what is my real problem with it: The possibility to change the direction at ANY time. Please for god's sake give it a cooldown or something like that. We play in private games and there is a wide range of amount of time spent and many of us check in maybe 4-6 times a day. A navigator which is completly unpredictable and only counterable by a pirate is just annoying as it forces you to watch it move every single step, as it could change direction at any time.

If a cooldown would make it too weak, buff it with something else, but please keep the ~8 hours of reaction time in the game (I am aware they are merely a farce, as it is very often about seconds/minutes especially with specialist-combos). However, the navigator is so extremly against this principle it makes me sad.

Hi there,

there is no 8 hours reaction time unfortunately. I can understand your problem with that - I have the same issues. It is all about the right timing in the end, but later in the game due to speed boosts subs are arriving even before 8 hours. And even if not you cannot move your reinforcements to the right place in time. Also for example if you miss the right time you might not be able to send your pirate, etc.

/tombolala

I'd argue that pirates are just as different as navigators. What other specialist lets you have combat with a sub which may be completely irrelevant to you?
e.g.
However, the pirate is totally fun draining for me. He completely counteracts the whole game design of having subs only interact with subs which are going in the opposite direction to the direction that you sent it.

So what is my real problem with it: The possibility to target an unsuspecting sub without being able to foresee the possiblity. Please for god's sake give it a cooldown or something like that. We play in private games and there is a wide range of amount of time spent and many of us check in maybe 4-6 times a day. A pirate which is completely different and only counterable by another pirate is just annoying as it can completely ruin your plans without you knowing.

OK, its different, I'll admit, how how much closer can you get? The pirate and navigator are the only specialists in the game that can change sub mechanics.

Yeah, you are completly right. It makes it so boring as it is unforseeable. There is no right move. Against pirate/navigator you need a pirate as no other mechanism in the game even interacts with them and because of the random choice of specialists it is even more: you will have to take it now, it could be you don't even get the option later again.

You can not even shoot them down with a sentry I guess if there would be at least a broader amount of choices you could take, I guess then it wouldn't feel so extremly shallow and narrow. Maybe it would be more fun when you could target subs from a station which is under attack from a navigator. Ok, this could be way to strong, just a "throw this idea out there". This would interact with all of the speed bonuses or production bonuses, you could try to move in ships from a third outpost just in time. Ok likely it is too strong as it makes the navigator+martyr combo worthless and without most combos the martyr isn't that strong either, so that can't be a good suggestion.

Hmm, I admit, I don't have the one solution to solve all the problems either, but I am sure there are some clever guys here on the boards with a huge amount of games under their hood which can think of clever and balanced ways to cut the edges off of this.

If you play in a private game why not just say no hiring navigators or navigators can only change course once or go home. Navigators are strong but so are most of the other specialist.

The issue with a navigator is that it is only targetable by a pirate. So if an opponent has an attack sub with a navigator on it, unless you have a pirate all these defensive specialists become useless: Saboteur, Double Agent, Martyr, Thief. And even if you did have a pirate to target the navigator with, you will generally be sacrificing 2 specialists to deal with 1 attack. The other problem is that if you send reinforcements to a base that is being attacked, the navigator can reroute and land at the now undefended base that the reinforcements came from. If the Navigator is paired with a speed specialist, it is almost impossible to adequately reposition defences, requiring you to have an equal amount of drillers as the death sub does at all of your outposts close to it.

I don't feel the navigator is that broken because many of the issues with it can be countered by a few specialists. The smuggler can rearrange your drillers faster than the navigator can get to the new outpost or at least can help a lot. If it is a queen hunter then a revered elder can be an amazing specialist and can buy you time to get a pirate to target the navigator directly.

I think one way to deal with the navigator is to go on the offensive. Instead of sending subs back and forth to defend against the navigator, attack the opponent and force him to respond. In a recent game that I lost the opponent had an early game navigator, pirate and foreman. He attacked me but instead of defending I counter attacked. He choose to send his pirate and navigator to defend that base instead. Due to a misplay by him I was able to hire a helmsman, get to the base where his foreman was head to and kill it off before he can complete a pirate, helmsman, engineer combo. It didn't end well for me but I was able to kill off his pirate and foreman from dumb luck and force him to hire a thief instead of promoting the foreman. Also constant attacks on him maybe forced him promote that navigator to a admiral if he wasn't planning on it.

I'd argue that the nav is a necessary part of the game. In any game, there has to be some element of unpredictability in order to give the game a different flavor each time. Most games use dice or some other RNG, but in games like Diplomacy, there's the unpredictability compounded on the immediacy of your opponents' moves to create unpredictability. The nav is the biggest aspect of Subterfuge that has unpredictability, and thus should be preserved as it is.
Why unpredictability? Because otherwise each game would begin to feel the same. Imagine Yahtzee, except that you're just given a set of numbers to construct your yahtzees or whatever. Well, then it's not a game, but a puzzle, and once you've beaten Yahtzee once, you've got no reason to come back. Or imagine Risk with no dice, where superior forces win all the time. It's far less exciting when the one soldier in Kamtchatka has no hope to kill 20 soldiers alone.

I find a good counter to a navigator-combo sub is that make the results of the combat too costly for the owner.

Earlier in games, a navigator sub pulls in most of the resources of the player and if they lose it - they're put in a really weak position.

So if an enemy neighbor gets a navigator early or has the choice of one - I try to hire the assassins and move them to positions to remove target outposts. This allows you to then beef up the other outposts where you don't have assassins to have those targets appear to costly to do battle with.