i think the real problem of the game is that it has no real

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related

  • EDIT: that it has no real tutorial (title was too long only saw it after posting)
    So im completly in love with this game. And i know that my friends would love it too but since its an online game where they have to compete its natural that they try the puzzles first. And thats the problem. The game has no real tutorial wherw everything is explained well. In fact the puzzle experience is completly different from the real game. Dont get my wrong for me as someone who already knows how thinks work the puzzles were nice as a singleplayer mode. But they are challenging and a tutorial should tell you exactly what to do - it should even indicate wherw you have to put your finger. Its a mobile game and if the start is not super easy 99% will drop it while not knowing what they are missing.
    I know that there are this tutorial videos and stuff and that this information is in fact available but i think for this game to have sucess when you first start it you should get an easy and quick start + explanation. And let people know that the single player experience is completly different from multiplayer (because you get a situation that you have to solve instantly with mostly only one possible solution while multiplayer is real time)
    I told my friend that all struggled with the puzzles that they dont even have to complete them because in the actual game it will all come in time. You dont need to know all specialists because if you wanna hire one you can just read it then.
    I think the game is perfectly fine but we need the devs or at least some kinds of mods. If no real crazy exploits are discovered we will be fine (still sad new content and balance from time to time would be nice) But we need at least some people that are able to respond to the reports (multiboxing harrasment and so on)
    If the devs are reading this: you made a perfect game. Many people love it and there are thousends of people that would pay for this game but will never get into it because they dont have a quick start. Hell even i didnt play it for a month after installing (and it was friends recommondation that i trust) because the start was awful. This game is already finished. You need minimal work to keep it going since youve already done most of the part and in sure with the right changes that game would be sucessful. Add ads (not ingame but main menue?) Give us micro transaction (cosmetics no pay2win like different colours shapes for subs etc) but pleasw stick to this game. It has so nuch potential and is in fact the only real mobile game ive ever played. Other games are just bathroom stuff.
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  • I've seen quite a few people complaining about the tactical puzzles, and I have never understood why. Other than the last few, they're pretty straightforward and shouldn't take you more than an hour, right?
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  • I've seen this too actually. I've also seen a few people find a way to play without doing the puzzles, get extremely mad and confused, and quit. I think something that was really helpful for me was that in my first game, seeing as I got it when it was released, was that I was in a game with all new players. All of us were a bit confused, and that just made it a bit more fair. New players now are thrown right j to it, and for a new player, playing against a for,Ida le veteran can ruin the experience. But yeah, I do think the pizzles shoudl be a bit more encompassing/better.
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  • I do not want to remove the puzzles. They are perfectly fine. But afterall they are puzzles. I played them again after my first multiyplayer game and had much fun. My point is that its more a singleplayer and not a tutorial. The start of the game is pretty hard (the game is actually not complicated but it feels like it is in the beginning). And i think that this is the biggest problem why the game is not making money because people will not get into it fast enough. If you really want to get into it the puzzles are enough but most of the mobile game community will not bother and try to learn it if the start is not quick. As i said as i played them again with more knowlegde they were super easy. But for the start we need a tutorial that tells you what the game is about and how things work.
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  • http://forums.subterfuge-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1266&hilit=mandatory+puzzles

    I still stand by this ^

    The one aknowledement I will make is that it slows down people who want to return after being banned, or who are trying to multibox. However, I very much doubt that delay has really stopped anyone determined to make a new account from actually doing it.

    And now that the code of conduct has gone missing and the devs gone silent, there isnt much to delay.
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  • Well perhaps my being a chess player encouraged me to do the tactical puzzles without actually knowing I had to do them. I only found out I had to do them when I got L1...

    Anyway, it took me about 20 minutes to read the rule book and another 10 to get L1, so I think the worst part is actually the rule book, not the puzzles (they're fine as long as you actually know how you're supposed to send subs, etc.)

    In my opinion, the puzzles act as a very good filter of the people who probably wouldn't play anyway because they game doesn't actually suit them. It this filter didn't exist, a lot more games would have been ruined by people resigning and autoresigning, and not knowing even the most basic of tactics you can use in a war. I've seen people send a double agent on their attacking sub with another 3 hires worth of specialists and 100+ drillers... It just makes the game either way too boring, or way too easy.
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  • tw2000 wrote:I've seen people send a double agent on their attacking sub with another 3 hires worth of specialists and 100+ drillers... It just makes the game either way too boring, or way too easy.

    To be fair, the DA is the most misunderstood specialist of them all. Just last night, a 1400+ rated player did almost exactly that: launched on one of my outposts with 88 drillers, a Helmsman, and yes, a Double Agent. I launched 1 driller to counter and enjoyed the LOLs. =D

    But to get back on topic:

    tw2000 wrote:In my opinion, the puzzles act as a very good filter of the people who probably wouldn't play anyway because they game doesn't actually suit them.

    This is important. Are you frustrated by auto-resigns currently? If you make it too easy to get into a real game, it will be even worse. A tutorial could be helpful, but I think the first few puzzles should remain mandatory. As others have said, if someone can't take the time to think and figure out a couple puzzles, they probably are not this game's target audience.
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  • tw2000 wrote:Well perhaps my being a chess player encouraged me to do the tactical puzzles...
    In my opinion, the puzzles act as a very good filter of the people who probably wouldn't play anyway because they game doesn't actually suit them.


    I think the fact that you like the puzzles biases your view of them. Aka, why would you suggest removing the requirement of something you enjoyed?

    Tell me in what ways is the experience of playing the puzzles at all like playing the actual game?

    The puzzles have a really odd way of introducing a brand new player to the absolute basics of launching subs and using the time machine, at the exact same time they are being introduced to concepts so complex and nuanced that they will almost NEVER see them in an actual game. In addition, they are given a bunch of tools that dont exist in the actual game (like being able to reset and try again). They are also given absolutely no clue about some of the most basic fundamentals like diplomacy, what to do at the beginning of a game, how to synchronize actions with an ally, etc etc, so not only do they not learn them, they also dont even get to see these parts of the game, and never will if they dont enjoy the puzzles and give up.

    To put it in nautical terms-- the puzzles are like forcing someone to learn to drive a speed boat, as a test of whether they can captain a cruise ship. Yes, they both go in the water, they both have throttles, and yet its hard to imagine using one as a test for the other.

    You enjoy both speed boats and cruise ships. That's great, I'm not saying speed boats should be removed, rather that they should not be a requirement. But I have seen friend after friend who was somewhat interested in the concept of the game I described, completely bounce off of puzzles that have none of the cool things I promised.
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  • kevlargolem wrote:Tell me in what ways is the experience of playing the puzzles at all like playing the actual game?

    The puzzles have a really odd way of introducing a brand new player to the absolute basics of launching subs and using the time machine, at the exact same time they are being introduced to concepts so complex and nuanced that they will almost NEVER see them in an actual game. In addition, they are given a bunch of tools that dont exist in the actual game (like being able to reset and try again). They are also given absolutely no clue about some of the most basic fundamentals like diplomacy, what to do at the beginning of a game, how to synchronize actions with an ally, etc etc, ... never will if they dont enjoy the puzzles and give up.
    This is exactly my opinion. I dont want to make easier. And i still think that people should complete the puzzles because it will teach them some tactics.
    But they are not turorial like. Just today a friend deleted the game because he doesnt like it. But i am sure he would enjoy the game he just couldtn get into it. Thats the whole point of course its easy for people like us who enjoy the puzzles. But it should have a tutorial that tells you exactly what to do.
    Hey there welcome to subterfuge the goal of the game is to mine 200 neptunium and its a multiplayer game where you have to talk to the other players and make alliances. There are 3 types of outposts that do this... press here to linch a submarine.. press here to decide how many deillers you wanna take and combat works like this and so on. This game is a multiplayer game but we have a few puzzles if you want to play them. Stuff like this you know?
    The problem is that the game makes no money but it will never do if people are not having a quick start hell even i didnt understand at first and didnt look at it for some time because i didnt understand that the puzzles are set up so that you have to do one chain of actions to complete them. Easy example: i couldnt solve the Puzzle to found a player. Had to google it. That is stuff that should not be up to you to discover because its a gsme basic rule. It should tell you where you have to click and why. Or that you have to actually find out that you have to decide how much drillers you going to send (first puzzle) for someone who knows the game that seems laughable. But i dont wanna need to find out how the game works it should teach me. And after that i am ready to do some puzzles aka challanges. But then again tell us that this experience is completly different from the actual game.

    Its a mobile game. People install stuff and only bother if they understand it instantly. If they dont they just seitch to angry birds 1000. And no they wont be more people resigning actually if you watch the 3 tutorial videos you are more then ready to play it. You can learn it while playing subs take ages and you can only hire one out of three specialists at one time. Make the acess to the game easier. Dont make the game easier.

    Edit: i think the tldr would be something like puzzles are a set situation that you have to solve in 'one' move. The actual game is real time and you can respond wait think and learn. Its not like you have to queue all your moves to win the game after joining one. And basics of the game should be taught and not discovered.
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  • kevlargolem wrote:
    tw2000 wrote:Well perhaps my being a chess player encouraged me to do the tactical puzzles...
    In my opinion, the puzzles act as a very good filter of the people who probably wouldn't play anyway because they game doesn't actually suit them.


    I think the fact that you like the puzzles biases your view of them. Aka, why would you suggest removing the requirement of something you enjoyed?

    Tell me in what ways is the experience of playing the puzzles at all like playing the actual game?

    The puzzles have a really odd way of introducing a brand new player to the absolute basics of launching subs and using the time machine, at the exact same time they are being introduced to concepts so complex and nuanced that they will almost NEVER see them in an actual game. In addition, they are given a bunch of tools that dont exist in the actual game (like being able to reset and try again). They are also given absolutely no clue about some of the most basic fundamentals like diplomacy, what to do at the beginning of a game, how to synchronize actions with an ally, etc etc, so not only do they not learn them, they also dont even get to see these parts of the game, and never will if they dont enjoy the puzzles and give up.

    To put it in nautical terms-- the puzzles are like forcing someone to learn to drive a speed boat, as a test of whether they can captain a cruise ship. Yes, they both go in the water, they both have throttles, and yet its hard to imagine using one as a test for the other.

    You enjoy both speed boats and cruise ships. That's great, I'm not saying speed boats should be removed, rather that they should not be a requirement. But I have seen friend after friend who was somewhat interested in the concept of the game I described, completely bounce off of puzzles that have none of the cool things I promised.

    Ok, you have fair points. I think what you're getting at is that tactics don't reflect the game's content well enough. But I think we still need some sort of filter to sort through the people who are just going to join a game and then just die. A tutorial, as you mentioned, doesn't really help with anything to do with diplomacy or starting a game or some of the most important skills of subterfuge, but it would be a good option for newcomers. Still, I don't really see people quitting the game on learning that subterfuge is a really easy-to-play game, because its not.

    Again, let me use Chess as an analogy. You're saying that we introduce newcomers by giving them tactics to do, about which I definitely agree that it probably isn't the best way to do things. In Chess, though, I learnt by reading all the rules. These days, you can watch videos to learn how to play. I agree that this is probably a much better option, but then again, Subterfuge has videos as well (although they aren't very detailed). In chess, though, you usually play against your friend first, who will forgive you if you don't like the game. Even if you play online, 1 resignation just gives the other player a higher rating, and doesn't affect much else. Because of the 2-player vs 8-player difference, I doubt there is a very good way to both teach engagingly and be a filter for those who probably won't like Subterfuge anyway. Because, lets face it, how many people are going to want to play if a third of players resigned on their first game and made the game way too unfair? Probably only the player who won.

    So, we then have to decide which choice is more optimal, having compulsory tactics to eliminate players before they get to the actual game, or having everyone play because they finished the tutorial but 4 people auto resign because they never check their subterfuge again, ruining the other player's first experience (more than if those players had been already eliminated by tactics). And, to this question, I don't know which one is better really....

    Another thing, within the compulsory puzzles you actually do see some concepts which are commonly seen, and the 'tutorial' part of the tactics is usually different from the 'tactical' tactics.
    Tactic 1. Shows you how to launch a sub,
    Tactic 2. Shows you how you can attack an outpost using drillers from 2 different outposts (a slightly more complex way)
    Tactic 3. Introduces you to defending your outposts
    Tactic 4. Teaches you how to use the time machine
    Tactic 5. Teaches you how to counter absolute driller destruction by specialists (I agree that this is a bit too difficult if following on from the last one, and I think the hint should be changed to say that you have to use the time machine)
    Tactic 6. Introduces you to the concept of counterattacking. (This one is pretty hard as well)
    Tactic 7. Introduces you to factories, teaches you to use specialists to attack (infiltrator).
    Tactic 8. Introduces you to queen hires, teaches you to use specialists to defend (saboteur).
    Tactic 9. Teaches you about the concept of combat priority, teaches you to use specialists to defend (martyr).
    Tactic 10. Introduces you to promoted specialists, teaches you to use specialists to attack (war hero).
    Tactic 11. Introduces you to Neptunium and MIning, teaches you how to build a mine.
    Tactic 12. Introduces you to the concept of diplomacy (a bit) and allies by using gifts, teaches you how to gift.
    Tactic 13. Introduces you to funding.
    etc.

    Most of them are quite followable and shouldn't be a problem. However, putting Tactic 5 and 6 (which are ranked 'intermediate' difficulty) at 5 and 6 seems a bit too sudden and harsh, and I did observe that most people who I've introduced the game to had to ask me for help on those tactics. In fact, they did everything else up to the last few L1 tactics just fine. (Oh, and I also think that the last few tactics before L1 needs to have elements of actual tactical and strategic play involved, just not too difficult.)
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