Kings are not OP

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related
Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:30 am

  • mathsums wrote:
    topkilla wrote:Kings are not OP, nearly every specialist is.


    I’m in a game right now, as it currently stand, I’m about to get completely destroyed. Not because I suck, I played very good, but because one player wasn’t eliminated in the early days like he was supposed to have been, and another player has been collecting all his specialists.

    Thankfully, this has finally lead me to figuring out the issue with specialist balance. It’s not a single, or a select few that need to be changed to fix the erroneous balance. It’s the whole underlying foundation of the specialists, their wide range of usability and relation to game mechanics, along with their king-making potential.

    Subterfuge is supposed to be about diplomacy, but due to the issues above, it’s currently about who can acquire the most, best, specialists. Usually, as the result of one player who gets beat bad, and then gives all his specialists to another in the hopes that his protector will eventually have enough specialists to easily manhandle his old opponent, and therefore rank higher than the person who he severely got outplayed by.

    You should care about this because I feel like it truly has hurt this game. People don’t play games that are not fun. And the way Subterfuge is currently balanced, it’s not fun. And that’ not a something you can afford to have when the games last ~7 days at a minimum.


    P.S. - Anyone who disagrees and thinks that turtling and feeding a player your specialists, “is diplomacy” is wrong. For example, North Korea doesn’t supply China with [specialists].

    Lol, you got your butt handed to you by an alliance, he was capable of ensuring your destruction. He played better. In the game called diplomacy, jassinary often comes into play. Basically a slave of the greater power. You forced that player to become a vassal, you left him with one last best hope. He took it, now if you had finished the job rather than ighting his ruler, or whatever it that you were doing, then you would have had a better chance. Get powned noob. Yes it is lying when me into , but imagine what it feel for .


    Hey friend,
    Turns out I got second. But doesn't change the fact that this is the critical problem of balance in Subterfuge. And not the massive reworking of specialists.

    Get powned yourself, noOb.
    <3
    Supreme Leader TopKilla
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Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:37 am

  • Ok. After thinking on the 'increasing specialists hire interval' thing for a few days. I think a better solution will be to not change the interval, but to implement some sort base calculation into the mix.

    There's many different ways it could be done, but the simplest example would be something like if a player falls below 5 bases, then their specialist hire time is doubled.

    That, along with a few minor tweaks to specialists. Mainly ones that have game mechanic braking abilities when stacked, should fix the balance of the game.
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Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:41 am

  • aclonicy wrote:Z makes a good point, specs are infinitely better than drillers once you amass enough of em, they can practically outmode drillers in some cases. However I just don't know if I'd like subterfuge as much if specs were weaker. I'm just not into diplomacy as much as some other guys are. I can see how it would be aggrivating, but I'm getting multi teamed in a game by 2 guys and my decently good specs can't save me, so diplomacy does seem to win out in the end, you've gotta set yourself right I guess. Just sort of my 2 cents about all this.


    He does. Because the global specialists for the most part, break the underlying game mechanics when stacked...

    If you're not into diplomacy, you'd absolutely love weaker specs. Because it would make it easier for you to single handily power through others. Because the game would come down more to military strategy and diplomacy rather than who 'team' has more specialists, and better specialists.
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Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:53 am

  • I am the beneficiary of the specialists in the game with Topkilla, and I'm a bit conflicted on what I think the solution is. I think an option mentioned earlier about preventing global abilities from stacking would probably be best... Could have it as a flag which could be turned on/off perhaps.

    Topkilla, diplomacy still played a part as when I turned on you & flydarkwings in order to secure the win you both handled it well... As opposed to the others who just decided abuse was the way to go. So I was very happy to ensure you guys finished 2nd & 3rd & not completely destroy you. Dibidiboo ended up coming to terms with it & apologised in the end for the things he said.

    I could've just stuck with my alliances and finished about 4th or 5th but when I had all that spec power the win was so easily achievable. Only way to really stop it would be to find someone else to gift specs to in order to fight back I guess.
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Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:11 pm

  • Yes, yes you are. Lol. <3

    I don't agree with your assessment. I think diplomacy played a part in it where you were receiving funding from multiple people who didn't think you were going to attack them, but after you hit critical mass, you were able to do pretty much whatever the hell you wanted.

    I don't classify you choosing the final ranking of the game to be diplomacy. I also don't consider you getting all of Pagsus specialists to be diplomacy either.

    I honestly didn't think you were going to win. Then all of a sudden, you took over bear and looked like you had a clear path to winning. It's also when I realized you were being fed specialists. Lol. Either way, gg.

    Also, check out the balance suggestion thread I just made.
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Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:49 pm

  • I disagree.
    When pagsus and I were attacking each other early I was very diplomatic in how I reasoned with him about why I had moved against him and how I hoped we could work things out in a mutually beneficial way etc... A significant number of players would just threaten or abuse, etc which would harm any potential possibility of working together in the future. So when Pagsus eventually was being overrun by yourself & orange he offered me, a guy who had initially been attacking him, specialists & more... If you'll remember I did mention my deal with him in our group chat with orange so it shouldn't have been any surprise that I was being gifted specialists.
    Likewise, not long after pagsus & I were attacking each other, olive attacked me. But a day or so later I was able to make a deal with them (just in time as sky had started attacking) and later in the game olive would play a major part in allowing me to win by gifting me a hypno which I used to convert a nav. It was deceptive diplomacy there (perhaps best described as subterfuge), but it worked in my favour.
    You're right in saying that those who have such a specialist advantage really do less diplomacy & more dictating though. But those who don't have the specialist advantage really need to use diplomacy even more to turn that big player against others & not yourself.
    I'm putting together a little recap video of the game from my perspective, I'll link it in here later when it's done.
    colonelblair
     
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Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:13 pm

  • I think you understood wrong. You're diplomacy skills are certainly solid. However, you're cutting yourself short on the whole getting specialists from Pagsus thing. There's really not a lot to it. You offer him protection and a base, he ships you his specialist. You get an extra hire, he's no longer guaranteed last place. In fact, he got what? 5th?

    That's not diplomacy. It's submission for survival.


    I'm not trying to put down your win or anything. You played great. And you played everyone like a fiddle. But I think we can agree that getting someone's specialist who has one base, isn't exactly balanced.

    Check the other thread though and share your thoughts.
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Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:34 pm

  • Oh yeah I agree with that... half the players had no idea that was happening and had no influence or opportunity to affect it, yet it really swung the balance of the game quite ridiculously after a few days. That said.. at least 3 players saw what was happening and had the opportunity to attack teal to finish them off or attack me to ensure I didn't get full advantage of those specialists. If I ever saw that happening I would be teaming up with everyone around them immediately to take them down. And if people start getting regularly teamed up on for being gifted specialists they may think twice about doing it next time.
    But later on in the game when you are about to kill someone and they gift all their specs to another player... that really can cause a super inbalance which you just can't counter. Sometimes you're just better off letting them live so that doesn't happen (or always have a pirate nearby to scoop up gifts)
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Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:43 am

  • There's PMs too

    TAKE.Benzedreene
    TAKE a deep breath and...
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Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:32 am

  • topkilla wrote:So you agree with me then?

    How would expiring specialists work?

    I did in part agree with you, until I saw who the person who did this to you again was!
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