TopKilla - Subterfuge Balance Suggestions 12/21/16

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related

  • [url]Specialists in this game should sort of be considered something similar to "research" in other war-like games like Civilization. On a basic level, The bigger your nation, the quicker you can research more advanced things, the stronger you become[/url]
    Correct, so when you have the power to completely overwhelm an enemy if they are willing to gift you everything they have just for their survival, then you should be perfectly allowed to take it. The issue here is that players can become unbeatable if they get someone to do that, and that's the point. You want to be unbeatable in subterfuge, you can to threaten, coerce and dominate your enemies into getting what you want. And if you can, congratulations you did it right! If you didn't but your enemy did then you failed, you could've done the same thing your enemy did and because just as powerful. And yeah turtling is strategy, a good turtle will kick butt in the last few days of the game, but if you don't get your turtle strengthened in time, sometimes you have to concede to the enemy or die. That's a choice you can make, and if you choose to support your killer to get a better place, then congratulations, you and your beneficiary will do better.

    Ultimately gaining strength is the path to victory in subterfuge and there is nothing wrong with the current ways of increasing your strength.
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    aclonicy
     
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  • I don't think you understood correctly.

    The problem really comes down to people on a single base just shipping off specialists in exchange for protection. - If you're on one base, you shouldn't have the same specialist interval as everyone else. It's really that simple.

    Small nations don’t have the same military abilities as large ones. You don’t see North Korea being anywhere near the super power that the US. I think my analogy to Civilization was pretty spot on.


    5 bases isn't a lot. But it's enough bases that it forces the player who's offering protection to choose between working with the should be deceased, or officially killing them off. - Which is a choice between giving up multiple, or helping multiple bases be acquired, in exchange for maybe getting his specialists at a later point in time, and kill them.

    This change completely changes the fact that a player who’s one of the weakest, can sit around doing nothing, get a few days worth of free specialists in exchange for a base, and then literally choose the ranking by eliminating whoever he wants.

    This change also allows everyone else the opportunity to fight the exchange of free specialists for nothing by giving them a much wider range of areas to attack. Instead of trying to figure out how they can push through one players territory and then try to kill a turtled player.



    And the thing is, turtling shouldn't be a valid strategy. The fact that there's two people who use it as a strategy in this thread along shows that's a problem. If you lose you’re bases, you shouldn’t be able to completely rebound from it. Without a massive assist from other players. And it shouldn’t be as difficult as it is to eliminate a turtled player. Again, this change would fix both of those problems as well.

    And while you don’t consider this a problem. It’s a massive one. And it runs deep. People don’t stick around and player games where they feel “cheated”. It’s a huge negative effect on the player pool on the long term.

    If you guy’s don’t believe me, Ask JD. - I’d bet a large sum of money he agrees with me 100%. See, I thought I was going to get fucked, but I didn’t. JD on the other hand, wasn’t so lucky.
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  • Changes to Specialist Hiring Rules:
    When a player has less than 5 bases, his Specialists take twice as long to hire OR are no longer eligible for for hire at all.

    Reason: Specialist Stacking is one of the biggest problems as far as game balance is concerned. And while the Specialists are pretty well balanced with a 1:1 ratio, there's a major problem that occurs when players start to gain more specialists than everyone else. And this generally comes as a result of a player feeding another player their specialists in exchange for their protection inside the middle of their territory.

    I think 5 bases is a pretty good indicator on if you should have an increase in your specialist hire time, or eligibility to hire specialists at all. It's both a significant number of bases, and not many at all. If you have less than 5 bases, you're likely on your way to losing.

    This change would make the protector of the practically eliminated player choose between giving up 5, instead of 1 base in order to gain the players specialists and just eliminating them to keep their production/supply. And it gives all the other players more of a chance of keeping the practically eliminated player without the ability to produce specialists.

    I see your logic and agree with your sentiment, but I think this presents a bigger problem than the one you're trying to solve, and that's that if you're nearing elimination and scrambling to stay in game, you now simply can't manage it. Picture a scenario where two players are each fighting each other:

    Player A is getting kicked around on multiple sides for whatever reason, but might be able to hold on if he can scrape up an ally or a lucky string of production line specs. Either way, the question isn't "will he win," but "will he survive the game with enough NP/outposts to go up in rank?" Player B is not getting kicked around, and is one of the people kicking around Player A. Now, most of the other players nipping at A have left off because they've got some business on another border or just think he's down enough not to be worth it for now, or they just feel sorry for him. B keeps pressing because he wants that territory, and knocks A below the outpost threshold. A has just been functionally eliminated even harder than he already would've been based on his outpost count, and it would be pathetically easy to just end him.

    Basically, what you're proposing fixes a problem that happens, but that I haven't seen all that often. Hell, it's been probably about 5 or 10 games since I've seen it at ALL. And this fix eliminates one of the primary catch-up mechanics in the game. A single fortunate hire option can get you back in the game in a big way, and reducing or removing the number of chances players have when they need it most just makes a player's final hours in the game a miserable mess.
    thrackerzod
     
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  • In regard to the spec decrease...

    So what happens on day two when my neighbor comes outta no where with a helmsman and takes an early base or two from me..? I lose my ability to hire specs any specs in order to counter..? What if I was waiting to hire something, cuz I saw what I had coming up next—do I lose those potential hires too? This will severely cripple already cripple-able players when they get unlucky early-game.

    I don't like a lotta your suggestions, though you aren't gonna convince everyone. I enjoy these sorts of conversations.

    -Funding thing is a joke, as stated above by others. Funding is not the easiest thing to come by, and I find that many players don't just "hand it out." Often times it is given in exchange for something.

    -Same goes for the princess/io stacking. If you wanna "waste" a hire on another io or princess, go ahead. I see it as a solid tactic, and really messes with people's strategy.

    -I am intrigued by the admiral, though not sold. I still do not see them as 100% broken...if someone starts to stack em, usually the boards I play on are alerted and something is done. AND YOU STILL HAVE TO GIVE UP A NAV FOR AN ADMIRAL, THE BEST SPEC IN THE GAME

    -Infil draining all shields is cool. Thief is meh atm, though some situations call for him. Two might be too much, but I have no info or direct opinion/experience to back that one up.
    dane69
     
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  • thrackerzod wrote:I see your logic and agree with your sentiment, but I think this presents a bigger problem than the one you're trying to solve, and that's that if you're nearing elimination and scrambling to stay in game, you now simply can't manage it. Picture a scenario where two players are each fighting each other:

    Player A is getting kicked around on multiple sides for whatever reason, but might be able to hold on if he can scrape up an ally or a lucky string of production line specs. Either way, the question isn't "will he win," but "will he survive the game with enough NP/outposts to go up in rank?" Player B is not getting kicked around, and is one of the people kicking around Player A. Now, most of the other players nipping at A have left off because they've got some business on another border or just think he's down enough not to be worth it for now, or they just feel sorry for him. B keeps pressing because he wants that territory, and knocks A below the outpost threshold. A has just been functionally eliminated even harder than he already would've been based on his outpost count, and it would be pathetically easy to just end him.

    Basically, what you're proposing fixes a problem that happens, but that I haven't seen all that often. Hell, it's been probably about 5 or 10 games since I've seen it at ALL. And this fix eliminates one of the primary catch-up mechanics in the game. A single fortunate hire option can get you back in the game in a big way, and reducing or removing the number of chances players have when they need it most just makes a player's final hours in the game a miserable mess.


    That's not actually a new problem. That's the way I believe the game should work. It's a war game. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is to eliminate players. And players who have all but lost, shouldn't be able to avoid elimination because they can get a protected base and feed their specialist hires to someone else.

    You're extremely lucky if you haven't experienced it. But it's also possible you have, and just didn't realize it. I've played 2 games recently. Both game had it happen.
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  • dane69 wrote:In regard to the spec decrease...

    So what happens on day two when my neighbor comes outta no where with a helmsman and takes an early base or two from me..? I lose my ability to hire specs any specs in order to counter..? What if I was waiting to hire something, cuz I saw what I had coming up next—do I lose those potential hires too? This will severely cripple already cripple-able players when they get unlucky early-game.

    I don't like a lotta your suggestions, though you aren't gonna convince everyone. I enjoy these sorts of conversations.


    It's simple. That's a Irrelevant scenario. - You start with 5 bases, if someone launches on you right away, you should be able to defend it.

    Now let's say you have a terrible position where one base is near all of an enemies bases, and 25 hours away from your nearest bases. (I.E. The starting position I get almost everytime...) You'd still have a solid 10 hours or so to pick up another base. (4 hours for the hire time, + a few for travel.) Which means you should, after getting you're vacant outposts, have the 5 base minimum to keep your 18 hours specialist cycle.

    Obviously, there would be some sort of rules for how the cap worked. Probably something like If you have <5 bases when your specialist is hired, you're next interval is twice as long.


    dane69 wrote:-Funding thing is a joke, as stated above by others. Funding is not the easiest thing to come by, and I find that many players don't just "hand it out." Often times it is given in exchange for something.

    -Same goes for the princess/io stacking. If you wanna "waste" a hire on another io or princess, go ahead. I see it as a solid tactic, and really messes with people's strategy.

    -I am intrigued by the admiral, though not sold. I still do not see them as 100% broken...if someone starts to stack em, usually the boards I play on are alerted and something is done. AND YOU STILL HAVE TO GIVE UP A NAV FOR AN ADMIRAL, THE BEST SPEC IN THE GAME

    -Infil draining all shields is cool. Thief is meh atm, though some situations call for him. Two might be too much, but I have no info or direct opinion/experience to back that one up.


    Yeah, funding can probably be left alone.

    Vision Specs are not "wasted". And usually, they are a problem due to the fact someone else hired them and you got them for free. Even if they are not, Fog of War is a critical game mechanic.

    Again, usually, when Admirals get out of hand, it's because they were given to a player by a player who should already be killed. But I'll take speed over a nav any day.

    The other specs really are "fine". The few other changes suggested, along with all the other changes I mentioned, together, should make a very well balanced game.
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  • Meh, get over it
    My faith has found a resting place,
    Not in device or creed;
    I trust the ever-living One,
    His wounds for me shall plead.
    I need no other argument,
    I need no other plea,
    It is enough that Jesus died,
    And that He died for me.
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    aclonicy
     
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  • aclonicy wrote:Meh, get over it

    Great addition!
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  • Just went through all 20 of my games and not a single person who just gifts everything to a person for protection.
    My new party trick:
    I swallow 2 pieces of string and an hour later they come out of my ass tied together.
    I shit you knot.
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    whos sayin
     
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  • I appreciate the thoughts on these possible changes. What are the chances that an update is to actually come in the future? I like the ability for more customize-able options like was suggested. If there are changes that the community is overwhelmingly for then it should be implemented, and if it splits the community then making it a toggled option would be great.
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