Woo! It's another one of those threads everybody is tired of

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related

  • A 'How to Walance Subterfuge My Way' thread! Wait, don't click away yet though!

    I know many of these have been thrown around, but I’d like to quickly weigh in as things seem to be moving faster. Some of the threads have become a bit controversial, so I’d like to do my best to have things that everybody can agree on. We can’t really expect new features, instead we’re pushing for a balance update. The biggest question is then ‘What makes the game unbalanced?’ Obviously it’s going to be specialists, since they are the only random component of the game. Some specialists are really good, and some are really bad. Find the places where they are unbalanced, and fix them. (Easier said than done, of course.)

    So the King is of course everybody’s favorite specialist to hate. I think I’ll agree, especially as somebody who plays almost exclusively in domination, the King is a bit too powerful. On his own, one king is probably manageable, but in stacks he causes problems. This really drives to the heart of the issue: It’s not that specialists alone are too powerful, it’s that adding their strength together makes them too powerful. Most of the unpromotable specs just can’t handle the promoted ones, and even some of the promotable ones can’t manage each other.

    For example, take the Revered Elder. As of now, I almost never hire one, simply because they aren’t useful. As we said, promoted combat specs dominate in most games, and for some reason the Revered Elder has no effect on global specs. Make her cancel out global specs, and now you have a more equal way of fighting Generals or Kings. Consider too the Thief, right now he takes over 15% of an enemy’s drillers. Not terrible, but also not great. Seeing as one King gives you a 33% bonus, I think the Thief could stand a small bump in power. Maybe 20-25%? I know there’s a danger of hiring three and making a killer attack sub, but at the same time, hiring and placing three Thieves on one sub takes a long time, and even then could be countered with some good strategy. The goal here isn’t to keep specialists from being powerful en masse, but rather to make them diverse and evenly powerful to encourage a more open play style, rather than just spamming Kings and Admirals. I think with this in mind, the goal should be to pull back on the reigns of a few powerful specs while at the same time bumping a few others to give everybody effective counters and options.

    King: This is always the hard one. Alone, he’s a good spec. There’s a trade-off with shields, he isn’t too overwhelming in combat. But when paired up with more and more kings, it becomes incredibly hard to combat. Bump up the power of a few level one specs and I think it could be more manageable. I like the idea of the king dropping driller capacity as well as shields. As somebody pointed out, his negatives don’t stack. One you lose your initial shields, there's no harm in hiring more. But, if the trade off for more powerful drillers is that you lose toward your overall amount of drillers, I think that’s a bit more fair. In theory, the king would drop PC by 25 points, or whatever.

    Admiral: I don't really like the idea of a Navigator having a sliding scale of power, it doesn't feel natural. What if he reduced your production number by one, like a MOE?

    Revered Elder: I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again -- Cancel out global specs as well.

    Engineer: Repairs damage from global specialists too, but at a 20% rate instead of 25%.

    Thief: Steals 20%
    I’m sure I’m forgetting some specialists, I’ll update when I have another chance. I know none of these are particularly revolutionary ideas, but I think they’re about what we’re going to be able to get everybody to agree on. :P
    I'm highly suspicious of your motivations.

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  • Okay, I thought I was done, but I'm not. First, an alternative idea is to make the Admiral function like an inverse tycoon, slowing down your production rate. The thinking here is that every promotable spec should come at a cost. It needs to be a real decision as to whether or not to promote them. If they actually make you lose something, like shields or production, then there's a lower change of them being stacked. (Think MOE)
    Hiring a spec is always good, there aren't any drawbacks, but promoting a spec should require some thought. Ones like the Tycoon have a cost in that you lose the specialist try are promoted from, but things like the Nav or Hypnotist tend to be more niche uses. There's not really a loss there. I dunno, just something to keep in mind with the whole balance issue.
    I'm highly suspicious of your motivations.

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  • Blob, the admiral does not need that. Losing a single driller per production is terrible, and admirals already force you to give up a navigator. I never hire an MOE because of this (also, the tinkerer is amazing as is)
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  • The revered elder is not as much a "niche" spec as people often think. Have a large sub you wanna send to your enemy, but worried about them smuggling an assassin or da over to ruin your plans? The elder is the spec for you! I also enjoy pairing them with navipirates and drillers. Then those pesky, easily-assembled pirate assassin combos cant thwart your attacks.

    My last game required my fellow turtle to hire an elder to send with a da at an incoming death sub WITH an elder, so we could cancel that sub, and then take his newly acquired elder and give it to me so I could float away from my outpost with navipirate assassins swarmin' around like sharks waiting for me to jump into the water. I don't know what the analogical deterrent to a shark in the ocean is, but the elder acted as that in this situation. It was wild!

    That is just a specific scenario that doesn't do much for my non-niche argument, lawl.
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  • Dane69: your story about the elder with sharks swarming around you with frickin lasers was great! 8-) I agree; the elder is awesome and underrated.


    Blobby: the thief is fine as is. You're underestimating how brilliant a thief is NOW - it *steals* 15%. That 15% is taken from your enemy and goes to you. A thief's combat priority is 4, so it occurs *before* the king effect. King occurs after specialists.

    E.g.
    Scenario 1 - no thief
    100d no thief vs 100d + king
    King kills 33.
    67 vs 100d = king player wins by 33. No surprise. Losing player posts new thread on forum that king is OP.


    Scenario 2 - thief vs king
    100d + thief vs 100d + king
    Thief steals 15d
    115d v 85d (end of specialist combat)
    King kills 28d (85/3=28)
    87d vs 85d
    Player wins with 2d + thief

    YES: YOU READ THAT RIGHT - THE KING WAS PWNED BY A THIEF.

    Think of a thief as a localized king, at the cost of one hire and without the mess of giving up your shields.
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  • @Nojo Yeah, looking back, I'd say losing one driller per production is a pretty big disadvantage, but I think having it increase the production slightly would balance it a bit. I never really hesitate to promote my navs, maybe I'm just an outlier there. It's not super important in the end, I just thought it would reduce the desire to stack them.

    With regards to the elder, I still say it needs a buff. As you say, it's good for protection from a few specs, but it doesn't work to really make a difference in battle like it should. They always end up as my last choice hire unless I need one specifically.

    The thief is only as good as the drillers he faces. Sure, when facing 100 driller he's not bad, but that's also a pretty big fight. If that other person had two kings, or just 60 drillers, such a battle would go into his favor.
    I'm highly suspicious of your motivations.

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  • Carter, you show how good thieves are. I always hire them. And Nojo, I never find the reduced production rate of the MoE a massive issue.
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  • Blobby: multiple kings are no different. Two thieves take care of that. That's 2 hires vs two kings being four hires.

    And in smaller fights, the king is less efficient.

    An outpost with 20sh and 30d would take 51d to win.
    With a king, that's 0sh, 30d and 10 killed by king; that's only 41d to win. King is less efficient.

    Where people screw themselves is carelessly throwing numerous small subs at a kinged-up outpost and wondering why the strategy doesn't work. Rethink your strategy.


    I'm not an expert, but if I can take down players with multiple kings, anyone can. It requires a different strategy, doing some maths, and BALLS. :mrgreen:
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  • If the king decreases cap instead of sheild by 25, that will be easily counter able by a tinkerer and his local sheild.with a tinkerer, every king increases your cap by 60 so if you make him get rid of 25 cap it would be easily countered by a tinkerer. The only way to undo 20 shields is to get 2 security checks which no one will get BC its better to keep stacking kings.
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  • carter j burke wrote:Blobby: multiple kings are no different. Two thieves take care of that. That's 2 hires vs two kings being four hires.

    And in smaller fights, the king is less efficient.

    An outpost with 20sh and 30d would take 51d to win.
    With a king, that's 0sh, 30d and 10 killed by king; that's only 41d to win. King is less efficient.


    But that's only one king. Two kings an that same outpost now takes 50 drillers to take over. Initial small battles may go in favor of the person without the king, but eventually the king always wins. Sure, two theives are good against two kings, but only on one sub in each battle. They don't provide a comprehensive offense needed to fight somebody, because their effect is local. They also provide no defense unless you sacrifice one by sending it at an attacker.

    Thieves are good, but they won't take down kings.
    I'm highly suspicious of your motivations.

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