To all developers (new and old)

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related
Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:13 pm

  • My inspiration to make this thread came from Rathorian's post. I am aware the developers have stepped away from this game, but it is worth a try especially since we have a Subterfuge community edition in the works. There are a lot of people who care about the future of this game, including me.

    Subterfuge discord: https://discord.gg/nwBPs4u
    Subterfuge Community edition discord: https://discord.gg/9Cv2v6

    NOTE: The specialists listed below I believe should be nerfed. I explain which need to be buffed at the end. Unmentioned specialists are specialists that I believe are balanced. Perhaps my logic may be flawed. I am open to hear what you think.

    o - indicates the issue
    • - fine as is

    King
    • Global effect: For every 3 drillers owned after specialist phase, destroy 1 enemy driller in combat (does not stack)
    o Global effect: -20 to max shield charge
    • Local effect: +20 to max shield charge (-20 effect does not apply)

    King response - Nerf
    • Global effect: For every 3 drillers owned after specialist phase, destroy 1 enemy driller in combat (does not stack)
    • Global effect: Remove all shields on outposts that do not have a queen, king, or security chief present (effect(s) of security chief(s) will only apply to its residing outpost(s))
    • Local effect: +20 to max shield charge (-20 effect does not apply)

    Comments:
    I am aware this is a small change, but it stops the possibility of players pairing the security chief and king together. Especially since I believe the security chief needs a buff.


    Navigator
    o Local effect: May change course of sub at will (no limit)

    Navigator response – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Local effect: May change course of sub once (or twice depending on feedback)
    • Local effect: The count for change of course resets once the sub arrives at an outpost
    • Local effect: Not stackable if two or three navigators are on the same sub

    Comments:
    This will prevent navigators from glitching pirates. So, pirates can be successfully paired with double agents, assassins, saboteurs, etc. to stop the enemy navigator sub.


    Smuggler
    o Local effect: 300% speed when traveling to your outposts

    Smuggler response – Nerf
    • Local effect: 250% speed when traveling to your outposts

    Comments:
    As Rathorian mentioned in his recent post, a smuggler navigator is extremely powerful for a player who possesses most of the map. This can be controlled by simply lowering the speed of the smuggler.


    Admiral
    o Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Admiral response option 1 – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist and are launched from the outpost that the admiral resides
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Admiral response option 2 – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist and are within the sonar range of the outpost that the admiral resides
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Comments:
    The admiral is known as the most powerful Subterfuge specialist. These suggestions will restrict its game-ruining abilities.


    Tycoon
    o Global effect: +50% driller production rate
    • Local effect: +3 drillers per production cycle

    Tycoon response – Nerf
    • Global effect: -20% in time (rounded down) to produce in all factories (open to feedback)
    • Local effect: +3 drillers per production cycle

    Comments:
    The second most powerful Subterfuge specialist. The stacking problem can simply be solved by diminishing the production frequency. The factory hour patterns will now go like this: every 8 hrs -> 6.6 hrs -> 5.5 hrs -> 4.6 hrs -> 3.8 hrs -> etc.


    These are the four specialists I believe should be buffed: sentry, war hero, infiltrator, and security chief. How do we buff these? We do not know. It depends on how the nerfed specialists perform to solve this. But I am willing to give it a shot.

    Sentry
    o Ranged effect: -5% (rounded up) to the largest enemy sub in range every 2 hours
    • Range: 50% of stationed outposts’ sonar range

    Sentry response - Buff
    • Ranged effect: -5% (rounded up) to the largest enemy sub in range every HOUR
    • Range: 50% of stationed outposts’ sonar range

    Comments:
    Speeding up the sentries firing speed will counter enemy speed subs.


    War Hero
    • Local effect: -20 enemy drillers in combat
    • Combat priority: 7

    War Hero response – Buff
    • Local effect: 150% speed
    • Local effect: -20 enemy drillers in combat
    • Combat priority: 7

    Comments:
    I believe adding speed will make this specialist worth hiring to make a counterattack.


    Infiltrator
    o Local effect: -20 shield charge from defending outpost
    • Combat priority: 4

    Infiltrator response – Buff
    • Local effect: -40 shield charge from defending outpost
    • Combat priority: 4

    Comments:
    Notably the weakest specialist in the game. Destroying 40 shields may seem too high, but it is about time we put this specialist to use.

    Security Chief
    o Global effect: +10 to max shield charge of your outposts
    • Local effect: +10 to max shield charge at stationed outpost

    Security Chief response – Buff
    • Global effect: +20 to max shield charge of your outposts
    • Local effect: +10 to max shield charge at stationed outpost

    Comments:
    Now that infiltrators will get more use, the global effect must increase. Security chiefs are not used enough. This change will make it worth two hires.


    Thank you for reading. Open to hear feedback.
    "The real trick in highly reliable systems is somehow to achieve simultaneous centralization and decentralization." - Karl Weick
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Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:39 pm

  • King
    • Global effect: For every 3 drillers owned after specialist phase, destroy 1 enemy driller in combat (does not stack)
    o Global effect: -20 to max shield charge
    • Local effect: +20 to max shield charge (-20 effect does not apply)

    King response - Nerf
    • Global effect: For every 3 drillers owned after specialist phase, destroy 1 enemy driller in combat (does not stack)
    • Global effect: Remove all shields on outposts that do not have a queen, king, or security chief present (effect(s) of security chief(s) will only apply to its residing outpost(s))
    • Local effect: +20 to max shield charge (-20 effect does not apply)

    Comments:
    I am aware this is a small change, but it stops the possibility of players pairing the security chief and king together. Especially since I believe the security chief needs a buff.

    Chip - I think if someone wants to stack kings on top of kings or have a bunch of security officer let them. Maybe -25 shields or -30 shields to all bases would be simpler.


    Navigator
    o Local effect: May change course of sub at will (no limit)

    Navigator response – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Local effect: May change course of sub once (or twice depending on feedback)
    • Local effect: The count for change of course resets once the sub arrives at an outpost
    • Local effect: Not stackable if two or three navigators are on the same sub

    Comments:
    This will prevent navigators from glitching pirates. So, pirates can be successfully paired with double agents, assassins, saboteurs, etc. to stop the enemy navigator sub.

    Chip - I think the fun part about navigator is being able to redirect them. The bug would be fixed since the new game isn't related to the old one or it would be a different bug but I think have some limit to prevent navigator tag would be better. Possibly bases and pirates have jamming so cannot redirect if within an hour or 2 hours of a base or pirate might solve some stuff and prevent navigator tag though it would also prevent playing chicken with another player.


    Smuggler
    o Local effect: 300% speed when traveling to your outposts

    Smuggler response – Nerf
    • Local effect: 250% speed when traveling to your outposts

    Comments:
    As Rathorian mentioned in his recent post, a smuggler navigator is extremely powerful for a player who possesses most of the map. This can be controlled by simply lowering the speed of the smuggler.


    Chip - A 50% increase on top of a helmsman may not be worth it. Maybe 75%. I think the best answer is not to allow someone to surround you or take things in a way in which they won't surround you and if they do surround you then so be it.


    Admiral
    o Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Admiral response option 1 – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist and are launched from the outpost that the admiral resides
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Admiral response option 2 – Nerf (credit to Subterfuge discord)
    • Global effect: +50% speed to subs not carrying a specialist and are within the sonar range of the outpost that the admiral resides
    • Local effect: 200% speed

    Comments:
    The admiral is known as the most powerful Subterfuge specialist. These suggestions will restrict its game-ruining abilities.

    Chip - speed is just necessary part of the game or not necessary. I think just having some way to reduce the effectiveness to stacking but still have it global would be fine. Stacking for local speed is not that interesting if you think about, why promote so many admirals just to have 1 base be able to move stuff faster. Why not just get 2 helmsman and 2 navs which would be much more useful then 2 admirals. I mean there are reasons why you would want 2 admirals if opponent has an assassin or something.

    Tycoon
    o Global effect: +50% driller production rate
    • Local effect: +3 drillers per production cycle

    Tycoon response – Nerf
    • Global effect: -20% in time (rounded down) to produce in all factories (open to feedback)
    • Local effect: +3 drillers per production cycle

    Comments:
    The second most powerful Subterfuge specialist. The stacking problem can simply be solved by diminishing the production frequency. The factory hour patterns will now go like this: every 8 hrs -> 6.6 hrs -> 5.5 hrs -> 4.6 hrs -> 3.8 hrs -> etc.


    Chip - I think the idea with the tycoon and admiral could follow your logic. Tone it down a bit and see how people like it.


    These are the four specialists I believe should be buffed: sentry, war hero, infiltrator, and security chief. How do we buff these? We do not know. It depends on how the nerfed specialists perform to solve this. But I am willing to give it a shot.

    Sentry
    o Ranged effect: -5% (rounded up) to the largest enemy sub in range every 2 hours
    • Range: 50% of stationed outposts’ sonar range

    Sentry response - Buff
    • Ranged effect: -5% (rounded up) to the largest enemy sub in range every HOUR
    • Range: 50% of stationed outposts’ sonar range

    Comments:
    Speeding up the sentries firing speed will counter enemy speed subs.

    Chip - I dont' think the sentry needs a buff. It is a deterrent for large subs. 1 hour is too punishing. Sentry is good if subs weren't so fast, slowly down subs would be good or if sentry shoots a sub it also slows down non specialist subs to 1x.

    War Hero
    • Local effect: -20 enemy drillers in combat
    • Combat priority: 7

    War Hero response – Buff
    • Local effect: 150% speed
    • Local effect: -20 enemy drillers in combat
    • Combat priority: 7

    Comments:
    I believe adding speed will make this specialist worth hiring to make a counterattack.

    Chip - I don't think it would be really used much in higher level of play. The counter play of the war hero is more or less someone made a mistake but in high level I imagine a person purposely forced their opponent to have to promote the sentry limiting the counterattack. My main problem with adding speed is that there is a good amount of speed in the game and whether we want more specs to have speed.


    Infiltrator
    o Local effect: -20 shield charge from defending outpost
    • Combat priority: 4

    Infiltrator response – Buff
    • Local effect: -40 shield charge from defending outpost
    • Combat priority: 4

    Comments:
    Notably the weakest specialist in the game. Destroying 40 shields may seem too high, but it is about time we put this specialist to use.

    Chip - destroying 40 shield is probably fine. Majority of the time a base only has 20 shield anyways so 40 shield won't give it value and if it gives you value against a queen and that queen can't defend herself then so be it.

    Security Chief
    o Global effect: +10 to max shield charge of your outposts
    • Local effect: +10 to max shield charge at stationed outpost

    Security Chief response – Buff
    • Global effect: +20 to max shield charge of your outposts
    • Local effect: +10 to max shield charge at stationed outpost

    Comments:
    Now that infiltrators will get more use, the global effect must increase. Security chiefs are not used enough. This change will make it worth two hires.

    Chip - No I think this is a bad idea because it just promotes more shields and shields are a chore. Interesting idea though but shields aren't fun and people with too much shields fighting them aren't fun. I think it is worth trying but I feel like this just slows the game down.


    Chip - Feedbacked.
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