Love the game, hate the players

Strategy, feedback, or anything SUBTERFUGE-related
Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:52 am

  • I really enjoy this game, its mechanics, the strategy, the tabletop board game feel.

    I hate the players.

    There seem to be three types:
    1 Clueless noobs that will team up with you readily enough but are basically completely ineffective players.
    2 Seemingly friendly people who, without any warning or provocation, will stab you in the back the first chance they get
    3 That rarest of rare occurrences, someone who actually teams up with you and works with you and is loyal

    Forgive my rant. I'm sure I'll get a lot of replies here saying that hasn't been their experience at all. Congratulations. Lucky you. Must be nice.

    I've tried hard to be diplomatic and a team player and helpful and all of that. All I get is back stabbed. As an example, in my most recent game I teamed with a player who requested a precious generator outpost that was closer to me. It was the only generator in my vision and I told him I'd rather have it. He really whined about letting him have it so I said okay, he can have it. I moved my forces south to commence attacking the player below that my team decided to attack. Then this "ally" who was above used the opportunity to attack my relatively undefended upper side. He's not even teamed with the player we are attacking. It makes no sense!!!

    Bottom line, this game had potential but I doubt I'll play it any more with all these terrible experiences. Too bad, I got L2 clearance and everything.
    6payh
     
    Posts: 170
    Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:25 pm

Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:03 am

  • Its so difficult to be diplomatic without seeming weak.

    I find the only things to do to stop this are;

    Message constantly.

    Be tough at the beginning and then soften.

    Become player type 2.
    rosslessness
     
    Posts: 56
    Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:45 am

Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:08 am

  • You're forgetting the (auto)resigners.

    But hopefully they will either learn to appreciate the game and play more dedicated, or otherwise they will leave again. And if you have L2 clearance you can start playing rated games, and join higher rated games with better players.

    The devs really made an effort by requiring that you first have to beat some special puzzles before you can even play online, and then there's the L2 clearance which allows you to start playing ranked games. But they also need it to be accessible to lots of people in order to make it worthwhile.
    stefan
     
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Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:33 am

  • I wouldn't trust people at first, develop trust over the game as your objectives line up.

    Also, when someone does something like that go on the offensive. Message everyone else, tell them exactly what happened and plan a counter attack. Or turtle and get revenge. There are lots of fun ways to handle someone backstabbing you.
    Bigredsk10
     
    Posts: 161
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Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:09 am

  • My advise to avoid other situations like this :

    When you look at a game, before joining it, see who's in and how many games they made, if they won, and most important of all, if they resigned. Try to play ranked games only, you will avoid fresh new players who won't be really involve in the game (it's terrible when you ally with someone who finally left the game after 1 day of play, it ruins everything ...)

    In the game, try to ally with the players who won several games, and by chatting with them, see if they are reliable. Don't give up man, you will find someone you can trust one day, don't worry !
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    nneil
     
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Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:43 am

  • It is interesting how you project your views of how the game should be played unto others, there is no rule about lying or taking advantage of others. Diplomacy does not preclude aggression, and if I see that my best chance of winning is by taking advantage of a friend then I am free to do so, and vice versa.

    Subterfuge is a lovely exercise in applied game theory, everyone chooses their own strategy and your objective does not have to be to actually win yourself. Granted, inept players does make the whole affair much less enjoyable.

    As far as trust goes, you never trust anyone, you constantly judge your margin of safety. Always simulate and evaluate what all players can, and can't do. You work to put yourself in a situation where any action against you is either impossible or meaningless.

    I am only diplomatic insofar as to judge what others' end game is, and persuade them that I am not a threat so long as they do not attempt to achieve their goals at my expense. So far, other players tend to be ineffecient in applying the resources they have at their disposal, it is not so much that I get stronger faster, it is that they waste their energy. Those that are agressive show clearly how they intend to act, I need only make myself a harder target than someone else.

    I am not your friend if I don't benefit from being your friend. I am playing to win, same as you.
    strepto
     
    Posts: 4
    Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:13 pm

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:59 am

  • I am very hesitant to give up an outpost that I am closer to or have an advantage in obtaining. In that situation they had better give me something good in return before I let them have it.
    connor3491
     
    Posts: 116
    Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:10 am

Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:55 pm

  • Yeah, I feel like it's been said already, but you just have to shake it off when you get backstabbed. There are normally warning signs, too (i.e. Decreased communication, unreasonable compliance, shorter messages)
    It's all a part of the game. Just don't take it so personally, ya know?
    "Can I make a suggestion that doesn't involve violence, or is this the wrong crowd for that?" -Hoban 'Wash' Washburn, Serenity
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    roadkiehl
     
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Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:58 pm

  • Thanks for your insights into the intangibles of this game. Clearly I have more to learn.

    I haven't tried any rated games yet. I may do that.
    6payh
     
    Posts: 170
    Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:25 pm

Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:30 pm

  • I'm only L1 (as of now), but I've had games with many amicable players. Of course there are some annoying ones, but the best way to find out who belongs to which category you mentioned is communication. I usually find myself allying people who are on about the same time I am, as chance of backstabbing is lower (Because the other can respond relatively quickly). Furthermore, simple deals in the beginning which you can't really affect seem to please potential enemies. "Giving" others dormant outposts on the edge of your sonar range in exchange for 2 days' peace almost always guarantees peace for more than the offered amount. Messaging A LOT can make you be amicable with everyone, allowing you to choose your own fights. "Play" both sides of a conflict - tell them you will send support in the next day-, but rarely get involved. Rarely do I have someone attack me (so far, the only occurrences was a 2nd place player who wanted to beat me to get 1st, and a common enemy me and 2 allies agreed to fight) for no good reason.
    Or maybe its just luck who you get paired up with! L2 probably has a lot more reasonable players, just gonna play one or two more games before deciding to get L2!
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    pandasecret
     
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